Updated !!New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

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SheetsC
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Updated !!New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

Post by SheetsC »

Good day folks
Looking for a little help with my daily driver.

I have a two door 4 speed 1981 Rabbit 1.6L diesel.
And am In the middle of replacing a injector pump(timing belt, motor mounts, front shock, control arm ect) that was leaking from the cold start cable.
I bought a remanufactured Bosch IP from (competitor's name removed by moderator). New head gasket and oil baffle.
After putting it all back together and primed IP and lines i fired it up and after a rough start it get lots of smoke, no power( maybe 20mph) and knocking when I hit the throttle. Lines have been bled as it’s running.

The timing mark on the fly wheel is at TDC, the cam shaft is locked in place the flat bar tool and the notch on the sprocket lines up with the IP line and pin goes through IP sprocket licking it into place.
This was still the case after I fired it up and tore it apart to trouble shoot and triple. Check everything.

My procedure . After I took of the Old Timing belt off I moved the camshaft lobes so that the first two are flat(closed) and the flat bar fit perfect.
I then rotated the fly wheel so the mark was exactly at top dead center.
I then moved the IP sprocket and lined up the sprocket notch to the IP line on top.
Should I have done these first two steps in tandem? Could I have messed with something by doing them independently? Can the first two cam lobes be rotated so they where pointing opposite direction but still lay flat and would that effect anything?
I tried timing the IP with a gauge tool with no success using Vince Walden site and Bentley manual. I also rotated the IP to see if if advancing or retarding made any difference. And it did not that I could tell.
It also had a very high idle the first time then I loosened the idle screw. Is this common for rebuilt pumps?

I do appreciate any pointers you all might have.
-Chando
Last edited by SheetsC on Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1981 Rabbit two door 4 speed(future daily drive)
1982 Caddy 5 speed(past ten year daily driver)
Fatmobile
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Re: New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

Post by Fatmobile »

What color smoke?
Got clear fuel lines?
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
SheetsC
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Re: New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

Post by SheetsC »

White smoke.
I had to replace my clear fuel lines with Black unfortunately due to the unavailability of clear lines at my local auto stores.
1981 Rabbit two door 4 speed(future daily drive)
1982 Caddy 5 speed(past ten year daily driver)
wmasscaddy
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Re: New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

Post by wmasscaddy »

I have cheap clear tubing from the hardware store as fuel line. Got stiff after a few years. Broke it in the middle while fiddling with it, spliced the break with a piece of wider cheap clear tubing. Lasts at least as long as the fabric-covered black return line.
82 pickup 1.6 n/a
350,000 + miles lost to broken odo
11mm block, 12mm head
Fatmobile
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Re: New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

Post by Fatmobile »

White smoke is often air in the lines.
Get clear fuel lines to and from the pump.
Even if it's vinyl from the hardware store,..
or urethane from the local motorcycle or quad runner store.
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
sgnimj96
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Re: New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

Post by sgnimj96 »

wmasscaddy wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:20 pm I have cheap clear tubing from the hardware store as fuel line. Got stiff after a few years. Broke it in the middle while fiddling with it, spliced the break with a piece of wider cheap clear tubing. Lasts at least as long as the fabric-covered black return line.
I'm cheap, but no way I run hardware store tubing for years. Any unnoticed leak can easily cost the value of better fuel line in lost diesel; could even get you stranded.
https://www.amazon.com/Orange-Cycle-Par ... +fuel+line
81' Scirocco 1.6D (conversion)
86 Golf 1.6D
85' 300TD
Trumper
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Re: New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

Post by Trumper »

I would quickly lock the fuel pump with a pin.
Then, remove the fuel pump sprocket nut and washer.

Now, is the key-way at approx. 10:00 or 10:30 (clock-face) as you view it leaning over the passenger fender?
You know...I really don't care about notches on the sprocket, etc. Just look for the key-way.

This sounds more like you have the fuel pump 180 degrees off.
SheetsC
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Re: New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

Post by SheetsC »

Took off the nut and washer from the injector pump after locking the sprocket. Fly wheel also lines up at TDC when IP is locked
The key hole of the sprocket was about 10 o’clock.
Link below is vehicle running and throttled a few times.
Hard to here the abnormal knock in the video when I gas it. Also there a steady stream of white smoke that’s not visible in video.
https://youtu.be/7-i5FGWc7Hc

Thanks all
1981 Rabbit two door 4 speed(future daily drive)
1982 Caddy 5 speed(past ten year daily driver)
Trumper
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Re: New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

Post by Trumper »

Good for you....the sprocket is right.
Another question: there are two fuel inlet-exit bolts on the fuel pump. One should say "out" on the top (stamped steel). This "out" bolt has a reducer in the bolts-port to help control the amount of fuel which leaves the pump.

The out bolt needs to be on the very top of the pump which corresponds to return-to-tank line. The NON-restricted bolt goes in the inlet very-front-of-the-pump side.....where the fuel comes in from the filter.

If you have those bolts swapped......yes....very limited power. Check THAT....takes on a couple seconds....use a flashlight to see the bolt stamp on the one.

What shape were your copper washers on these bolts in? If the washers are fatigued/compressed.....they will allow air draw on that front bolt esp.

Same thing on the fuel filter washers.
SheetsC
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Re: New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

Post by SheetsC »

Thanks for your replies.
My out bolt is on the top of the IP
The pump came with new aluminum washers and the filter copper washers seem to be fine, cleaned and torqued.
1981 Rabbit two door 4 speed(future daily drive)
1982 Caddy 5 speed(past ten year daily driver)
SheetsC
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Re: New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

Post by SheetsC »

Update and question.
Video of it running and smoking posted in link below.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bP8gb02nmWI
I install clear lines to and from IP,
Banjo washers at the fuel filter inlet and outlet side. Replaces jumper lines on the side of the injectors because two where cut.

Still smokes a lot . Still knocking when throttled. There is one big air bubble between the filter and the IP that I can’t seem to remove. Would that cause all this smoke?
A few micro bubbles on the return from the IP to the tank.
I took the cap of the tank under the back seat and there was only a flooded float ball and lever. No screen or filter or anything else.
I am wondering the next steps you all think I should take.
I was hoping the banjo washers would fix my problems as they were pretty crushed.
Thanks
Chando
1981 Rabbit two door 4 speed(future daily drive)
1982 Caddy 5 speed(past ten year daily driver)
sgnimj96
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Re: New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

Post by sgnimj96 »

Check the timing, could be way off - making that white smoke

Seems like you could turn down the "fuel screw" a bit (13mm) - rpm's shouldnt hang that much when you let off the throtttle,
maybe just a 1/4 turn, that should bring the idle down too. Then again maybe you just rev'ed unusually high and your idle is too high.

a few stuck bubbles is fine, it's streams of bubbls are an issue, hard to see with that braided in the way but it looks like those bubbles are unusually stagnant. I assume the internal pressure is fine in that "new" pump, and the vane pump is working properly, but you need a gauge to know. Actually there is a flow test viewtopic.php?t=5936&sid=4cdedce621f894 ... f58d83c028
Basically, put a short hose on the return out of the pump into a bottle - it should move almost 16oz of fuel in one minute at idle.

Injector(s) may be crap, only way to know is to take em out and test them.
81' Scirocco 1.6D (conversion)
86 Golf 1.6D
85' 300TD
SheetsC
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Re: New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

Post by SheetsC »

Thanks for your help.
The vehicle was running well before the timing belt change and installation of the new IP which leads me to think the injectors are ok. There is not a steady stream of bubbles in the lines.
Earlier in the year I changed the injectors out thinking it would give me some more pep but it actually created a similar knock sound I get now however I did have more power then but not full power. So I put the original back in with new heat sheilds and things were normal again.
I will test how much fuel the pump moves at idle and check to see all the timing indicators check out.
Can someone verify my procedure of replacing the time belt above wouldn’t have lead to my current problems.
Thanks again
Last edited by SheetsC on Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1981 Rabbit two door 4 speed(future daily drive)
1982 Caddy 5 speed(past ten year daily driver)
SheetsC
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Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:26 pm
Location: Linville Nc

Re: New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

Post by SheetsC »

I let the car run at idle speed and took the out line of the IP into a measuring cup.
Nowhere near one minute for 16oz.
More like one minute for one ounce.
Should I’d just adjust the fuel adjustment screw?
Or is the newly rebuilt IP from Marts Mlace the problem.
1981 Rabbit two door 4 speed(future daily drive)
1982 Caddy 5 speed(past ten year daily driver)
sgnimj96
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Re: Need help!!New Injector pump = no power, lots of smoke and knocking

Post by sgnimj96 »

1 oz per minute, if correct, is way too slow. It did look like the fuel in the braided lines was just sitting there.

Do the test again pulling fuel from a container into the fuel filter, then out of the pump back into the container. Assuming there is no problem with your fuel filter, that will eliminate any other restriction issues. There is also a tiny hole in the "out" bolt that is worth taking a look at, poke it with a wire and give it a shot of brake cleaner to make sure it's clear. It's also worth blowing compressed air into the lines coming from and back into the tank (fuel cap off) - shouldn't be too much resistance and you'll hear the bubbling in the tank if its below the level of fuel.

If there are for sure NO restrictions going in or out of the pump, there is something wrong inside the pump - common diagnosis being "stuck vanes". But that usually only happens on pumps that are sitting for a long time with crap in em like vegetable oil or water.

Even just cranking the engine over, the vanes inside the pump move fuel fast. When running, that's why you see streams of bubbles if air is getting sucked in through leaks in the line. The vane pump is strong, if there is restriction it will make air leaks at good hose clamps.
81' Scirocco 1.6D (conversion)
86 Golf 1.6D
85' 300TD
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