This discussion began under a growing "leaking injector pump" heading...." Thought I'd switch to new; it's Wednesday, so why not?
Jack E. - or whomever answers mail at the main shop here - couldn't say why I've only got 10v, without testing. But I do need twelve at the glow plugs.
I have 12v going into the relay, only 10v at the plugs. So the problems the relay, or the connectors. I'll pull all that wiring out and clean all the connectors and such...but I think I'll still only have 10v.
I know nothing of relays but this one's failed. It's got 193k on it.
I hear they're expensive.
I understand the relay basically relates temperature measured at the head to an on/off switch, the LED light on the dash, and a run time switch of some sort.
The human mind can do all that except the on/off bit - and that can be done with a switch on the dash. Better - a timer on the dash.
Is there any reason not to just bypass the whole shebang with a new 12v circuit running from the battery to existing fuse strip to a switch on the dash and back to the first glow plug?
Puts a bit of a burden on the driver - to remember to do it, to estimate temperature, to remember to turn it off if it's not a timed switch....
But then, I can't imagine somebody owning one of these things and not constantly thinking of how every component is functioning at any given moment, anyway. It's the way of the Westy.
Glow Plug System Improvements
Moderator: Fatmobile
Re: Glow Plug System Improvements
It is important that the wires from the battary to the glow plugs
are keept short and thick, because of the high current needed by
the glow plugs. So a relay will be needed in the motor compartement.
If the voltage drop occurs at your relay, it will become very hot.
are keept short and thick, because of the high current needed by
the glow plugs. So a relay will be needed in the motor compartement.
If the voltage drop occurs at your relay, it will become very hot.
1989 1.6TD Diesel vanagon
1987 1.6D Golf Aut. Gear
1987 1.6D Golf Aut. Gear
I bought 2 relays (got to have a spare right?) for my problem but don't believe it is the relay. I spent about $22.00 each on them. They are not Volkswagen but are German made. If you want one I'd sell it to you for $22.00 plus shipping. I can't imagine shipping being more than $2 or $3. Let me know.
I'd say if you are the only one going to be driving the vehicle then bypassing the relay would work fine. If not I think you will be looking for trouble later down the road - burned out glow plugs.
Kevin
I'd say if you are the only one going to be driving the vehicle then bypassing the relay would work fine. If not I think you will be looking for trouble later down the road - burned out glow plugs.
Kevin
Another option, copy down the part # on your relay, and then head to a junk yard and check all the diesel Rabbits, Jettas, Quantums, etc for a matching # relay. They should use the same relay. I can't imagine a junk yard wanting more than $5 for a used relay.
Maybe try Ebay.
If you can't find one at a junk yard, PM me your part number. I know of at least 4 junkers that I can check for you.
Maybe try Ebay.
If you can't find one at a junk yard, PM me your part number. I know of at least 4 junkers that I can check for you.
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Vancouver Van
Glad to see relays are cheap - don't recall where I heard they were so expensive. I wouldn't rewire anything to avoid a $20 part.
I jumped into a conversation on the other, non-Vanagon Diesel chat room and got and followed some other tips.
Here's where it seems to sit:
Battery voltage, terminal to terminal, is 12v; with the key and glow plugs on, it drops to 11.5 - still measuring from the posts.
I have that voltage clear through the system - measured at both fuse ends, the #30 receiver, the beginning of the glowplug #1 lead, and the end of the glowplug #1 lead, as long as that lead is DISconnected.
IE - I have consistent voltage delivered if the glow plugs are unhooked.
If I hook them back up, I have consistent 12 volts only up to the Beginning of the glowplug #1 wire. With my meter hooked to the END of the glowplug #1 wire, with that wire also connected to glowplug #1, I read only about 10.3, 10.4 volts.
IE - with the glowplugs hooked up, I lose 0.5 volts at the battery and 1.5 volts at the first glow plug.
I did not think to check the drop at the battery with the glowplugs disconnected....could be another drain on the system - but it seems there's a 1v drain at the plugs....
I installed the plugs with a coppery anti-sieze. Wasn't sure it was necessary, but didn't think it could hurt, either - could it?
Also, I jumped direct from the positive battery terminal to the first glow plug for a count of about 30 seconds before starting this morning.
Still puffed a generous cloud until the engine warmed up. I finger-monitored the temperature right where the plug enters the engine; I could sense warmth after the 30 seconds, but it was barely there - you'd reheat coffee if your cup was that cold.
I jumped into a conversation on the other, non-Vanagon Diesel chat room and got and followed some other tips.
Here's where it seems to sit:
Battery voltage, terminal to terminal, is 12v; with the key and glow plugs on, it drops to 11.5 - still measuring from the posts.
I have that voltage clear through the system - measured at both fuse ends, the #30 receiver, the beginning of the glowplug #1 lead, and the end of the glowplug #1 lead, as long as that lead is DISconnected.
IE - I have consistent voltage delivered if the glow plugs are unhooked.
If I hook them back up, I have consistent 12 volts only up to the Beginning of the glowplug #1 wire. With my meter hooked to the END of the glowplug #1 wire, with that wire also connected to glowplug #1, I read only about 10.3, 10.4 volts.
IE - with the glowplugs hooked up, I lose 0.5 volts at the battery and 1.5 volts at the first glow plug.
I did not think to check the drop at the battery with the glowplugs disconnected....could be another drain on the system - but it seems there's a 1v drain at the plugs....
I installed the plugs with a coppery anti-sieze. Wasn't sure it was necessary, but didn't think it could hurt, either - could it?
Also, I jumped direct from the positive battery terminal to the first glow plug for a count of about 30 seconds before starting this morning.
Still puffed a generous cloud until the engine warmed up. I finger-monitored the temperature right where the plug enters the engine; I could sense warmth after the 30 seconds, but it was barely there - you'd reheat coffee if your cup was that cold.
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Fatmobile
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 7566
- Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:28 pm
- Location: north central Iowa
glow plugs
This has got me a little confused.If I hook them back up, I have consistent 12 volts only up to the Beginning of the glowplug #1 wire. With my meter hooked to the END of the glowplug #1 wire, with that wire also connected to glowplug #1, I read only about 10.3, 10.4 volts.
When you say the #1 glowplug do you mean the plug over cylinder #1 ... over by the timing belt?
Have you checked the current draw?
Do you have a seperate wire for each plug?
Do vanagans have the copper bus bar going to all the glow plugs?
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Vancouver Van
You can get dash type ammeters from Canadian Tire for about 6 bucks. I mounted one under the hood of my car so that it lights up and measures current at the same time (put in line after the fuse). I'm not fast enough to jump out of the car to see the peak draw but 50 - 60 amps is about normal for the first few seconds. My 92 runs the plugs for 3 minutes after start and you can hear the alternator/engine unload when they turn off. If you're getting low 40s I bet you have a bad plug but they are easy to spot as they don't turn red. Once I see that the car isn't drawing enough current I can test each glow wire individually to see which one's causing trouble. I think I used 10 and 8 guage primary wire. High currrent connections should be crimped even if you solder them. I think you are using slow glow plugs so they sink less current than mine.
Cheers, Steve
Cheers, Steve
1992 4-door Golf 1.6l
Currently 418K and climbing
Currently 418K and climbing
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Fatmobile
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 7566
- Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:28 pm
- Location: north central Iowa
ammeter glow plug test
Dash mount ammeters, that go to 60 amps, are cheap.
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Vancouver Van
Howdy -
received an e-mail unexpectedly, that suggested my smoking symptoms might also suggest a failed check valve in the fuel line - the idea being the poor beast was fuel starved because the supply line had voids in it - and warm-engine starts were better because the line hadn't drained back yet....where would such a check valve be found? The only place possible seems to be right above the fuel filter, in the filter's receiver.
Also, Srivett said his '92 ran the glow plugs for three minutes. I've cycled mine with the voltmeter hooked up, and the voltage goes to zero within thirty or forty seconds. First the LED on the dash goes out, then the voltage drops off to zero. Is that cycle just toooo short - indicating a bad relay?
Thanks!
received an e-mail unexpectedly, that suggested my smoking symptoms might also suggest a failed check valve in the fuel line - the idea being the poor beast was fuel starved because the supply line had voids in it - and warm-engine starts were better because the line hadn't drained back yet....where would such a check valve be found? The only place possible seems to be right above the fuel filter, in the filter's receiver.
Also, Srivett said his '92 ran the glow plugs for three minutes. I've cycled mine with the voltmeter hooked up, and the voltage goes to zero within thirty or forty seconds. First the LED on the dash goes out, then the voltage drops off to zero. Is that cycle just toooo short - indicating a bad relay?
Thanks!
That is normal for most of the 1.6s so no need to worry.
I'd answer your other question but I have no idea where the fuel tank is on your rig. If it has one it will be directly after the water seperator which is attached to the tank. If your engine bay has any clear lines keep an eye on them as you'll see the bubbles and foam if you have a problem.
Another possibility is that your van is fine and you're just not used to how it works? I ran into this problem when I first got my Golf. Gigantic plumes of black smoke are not unusual with these things, that's why the ECO diesel came out. I get white smoke for a few blocks and then only black smoke under full throttle.
Cheers, Steve
I'd answer your other question but I have no idea where the fuel tank is on your rig. If it has one it will be directly after the water seperator which is attached to the tank. If your engine bay has any clear lines keep an eye on them as you'll see the bubbles and foam if you have a problem.
Another possibility is that your van is fine and you're just not used to how it works? I ran into this problem when I first got my Golf. Gigantic plumes of black smoke are not unusual with these things, that's why the ECO diesel came out. I get white smoke for a few blocks and then only black smoke under full throttle.
Cheers, Steve
1992 4-door Golf 1.6l
Currently 418K and climbing
Currently 418K and climbing
I was also going to add, that a 'manual' glow plug switch will get you 'started' but, from my understanding-- glow plugs can cycle ON any time the engine is running..
The light on the dash, isn't on JUST when the glow plugs are glowing, as a matter of fact-- if you shut off the blower fan in my '82 Pickup, you can hear the relay click off several seconds AFTER the light on the dash goes out..
I paid $15 for a spare relay at Autozone, they're small and fit nicely in the glove compartment.. It is also the same as a HORN relay-- in case you ever NUKE one, and don't have a 'ready' spare..
The light on the dash, isn't on JUST when the glow plugs are glowing, as a matter of fact-- if you shut off the blower fan in my '82 Pickup, you can hear the relay click off several seconds AFTER the light on the dash goes out..
I paid $15 for a spare relay at Autozone, they're small and fit nicely in the glove compartment.. It is also the same as a HORN relay-- in case you ever NUKE one, and don't have a 'ready' spare..
AJ RN
Original-- From the Crossroads
Original-- From the Crossroads
Interesting...can't imagine why the glow plugs would cycle on with the engine running, but after a year of rebuilding and a year of using, I am still feeling remarkably uninformed about Diesels...
The problem I had a year ago with huge smoke clouds and hard starting was solved by replaced "off" brand gp's with Bosch. Effect was immediate, AND the rest of the system checked out fine for cycling times, voltage, and amperage.
It was smoking badly six weeks back, or so, but starting easy enough. I checked the gp circuit and all seemed well. Never really found the problem - however -
I had been traveling about 100 miles from home, over on the Oregon coast, and needed to add oil but hadn't any diesel-rated oil with me. I ended up adding two quarts of conventional 10w-40 before I got back home, and then I changed the oil and filter both...shortly after, I noticed the smoke.
As of right now, it smokes a bit more than in summer, but not much.
Another odd thing is the gp cycle seems to be much faster than it used to be. It has always been long - I don't remember the actual time but 20 seconds sounds right. Sitting there, it seemed forever - turn the key, put on seat belt, adjust stereo, hum a bit...then go. Now, it's darn near intstant - seems like 8 seconds or so.
It starts like a newborn car though, so I've not worried over this much.
The problem I had a year ago with huge smoke clouds and hard starting was solved by replaced "off" brand gp's with Bosch. Effect was immediate, AND the rest of the system checked out fine for cycling times, voltage, and amperage.
It was smoking badly six weeks back, or so, but starting easy enough. I checked the gp circuit and all seemed well. Never really found the problem - however -
I had been traveling about 100 miles from home, over on the Oregon coast, and needed to add oil but hadn't any diesel-rated oil with me. I ended up adding two quarts of conventional 10w-40 before I got back home, and then I changed the oil and filter both...shortly after, I noticed the smoke.
As of right now, it smokes a bit more than in summer, but not much.
Another odd thing is the gp cycle seems to be much faster than it used to be. It has always been long - I don't remember the actual time but 20 seconds sounds right. Sitting there, it seemed forever - turn the key, put on seat belt, adjust stereo, hum a bit...then go. Now, it's darn near intstant - seems like 8 seconds or so.
It starts like a newborn car though, so I've not worried over this much.
JD Axford
Vancouver, WA
80 Accord, 85 Toyota, 82 Westy 1.6D n/a
Vancouver, WA
80 Accord, 85 Toyota, 82 Westy 1.6D n/a
The glowplugs will turn off within a few (5-10) seconds after the light on the dash goes out. They do not ever cycle back on while the engine is running, unless there is a problem (bad relay or temp sender). If they do cycle back on all four glow plugs will burn out in short order. Sometimes the relays fail and they will click back on and off. The symptom is sudden horrible cold starts because all four plugs are burned out.
Plumes of smoke are only "normal" when there is a very cold start. That smoke will be the whitish smoke of unburnt diesel. A slight wisp under full throttle is "normal" with factory fuel settings, from what I understand, but plumes are not.
Andrew
Plumes of smoke are only "normal" when there is a very cold start. That smoke will be the whitish smoke of unburnt diesel. A slight wisp under full throttle is "normal" with factory fuel settings, from what I understand, but plumes are not.
Andrew