SVO system problems revisited--new info and photos

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v8volvo
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SVO system problems revisited--new info and photos

Post by v8volvo »

Things have been busy so it's been months since I last got a chance to work on the SVO system in my Rabbit, but I finally got to spend an afternoon on it over Thanksgiving break. I have got some new data, and wanted to run some stuff by you guys.

My first step was to install clear fuel line on the intake side of the injector pump. Started it up on diesel, no air bubbles. Drove it until warm then switched to looped veg; still no air. Drove for another 10 minutes or so, to the point where the engine was starting to clack and misfire slightly, like it had been doing before (see this thread for more on that: viewtopic.php?t=5573&sid=07c25121d75894 ... 1d7eea0307). I went and looked under the hood thinking the looped system would be full of air--but no, it was pure clear fuel, no air at all. I guess that means that the seals are tight in both the fuel line connections, and in the injection pump, because obviously there was no air in the return either if there was no air in the intake line during looped fuel flow. I did notice that if I pulled the cold start advance knob out part way, it got rid of the clacking.

My biggest surprise was that the clear vinyl fuel line did not feel nearly hot enough when running on veg. It was warm enough to make the vinyl line softer and mushier, but definitely not hot to the touch, as it should be if the oil is really at 120-150 degrees, right? The metal fuel injector pipes didn't feel real hot either. Maybe my problem is just that my veg oil is too cold--the Greasecar system only really heats the fuel by running it through a heated filter when in looped mode, since it pulls so slowly from the HIH tank line (which is very hot) and gets most of its fuel out of the pump return line. Just heating the filter seems pretty inadequate to me, and there's also a long distance that's not heated between the filter and the injection pump. How hot does the inlet line feel on your guys' SVO systems when running in looped veg mode? What kind of symptoms do you see when the oil is too cold? I figure that if the oil was too cold, it would not atomize properly and would then combust more violently, like what happens with diesel when the engine is cold, and that's why a little timing advance would seem to clear it up. Sound correct?

This is on an engine that was rebuilt only 9000 miles ago, and is known to have perfect compression, no overheating, good power, no oil or coolant use, etc. The injector pump is original with 234,000 miles, but it does not leak and the car runs great so I don't have much reason to suspect it. Injectors were rebuilt and calibrated when engine was done. The WVO system is a stock Greasecar kit with 15gal rectangular aluminum tank, hose-in-hose fuel line with hoses run through the interior, looped return with purge, and heated fuel filter. See pictures of the whole setup below.

My inclination is that the oil might just need some kind of final heat device. I guess the options are a flat-plate coolant heat exhanger or a vegtherm before the IP, or some of those individual electric fuel line heaters for the injector pipes--any suggestions there? I'm still stumped as to why it takes several minutes of running on veggie for it to start to have problems, but maybe that's just how long it takes for varnish to start to build up or something.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Anything helps. Thanks in advance.

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'81 Rabbit 1.6D/5-speed, sold '09
'86 Volvo 740 TD wagon, 295k
Fatmobile
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vegy

Post by Fatmobile »

It looks like you are running a looped system. When you switch to vegy the loop becomes a vegy/diesel mix. It takes awhile for the diesel to get used up and fuel in the loop to become mostly vegy.
vegy/diesel doesn't need heated so low fuel temps wouldn't effect it.
You have done a good job listing some of the problems with a greasecar system. Not a winter setup in my opinion.
You need to put a vacuum gauge on the fuel line. I saw a greasecar setup and they had to change filters every 500 miles because running the filter inside the loop means 5 times as much fuel is getting pulled through it as there would be if you looped to the filter output and bypassed the filter, left it out of the loop.
They knew it was time to change the filter when the van started chugging.
girl mark
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Post by girl mark »

a Vegtherm 12v heater from plantdrive.com might be a good addition. Sometimes they require higher amperage alternators (just depends on what's on your vehicle) but a lot of folks use them to fix the exact problem you seem to be having.

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v8volvo
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Post by v8volvo »

That's what I was thinking--either a vegtherm or some of those individual electric heaters for the metal fuel injector pipes. Do you have an opinion on which is better? My inclination is that the fuel is warm and thin enough to pump and I don't want to roast my IP, so I was gonna go with the individual metal line heaters, because all that really needs to happen is the fuel going to the injectors needs to be hotter, right? Or does the pump not care how hot the fuel is?

I'm also wondering how much temp is lost from the time the fuel leaves the vegtherm to when it reaches the injectors, considering it needs to go all through the pump and the metal lines, which probably radiate away a lot of heat. Worth worrying about? It kind of makes more sense to me to heat the fuel right before injecting. However, it seems like a lot more people use a Vegtherm or a coolant-based FPHE rather than the metal line heaters, and are happy. Any idea of the difference in electrical draw?

Fatmobile, do you recommend having the looped return come back into the intake line AFTER the fuel filter? I though seriously about that when first installing the system, but the stock Greasecar system has no final heat exchanger so if I bypassed the filter with the loop, most of the fuel would basically be unheated, which would not be good. Also, I figured that doing it that way would fill the filter with diesel during purge, and then the diesel would get heated while the engine was warming up next time it was started. I've heard hot diesel is not a good thing. I guess if I added a Vegtherm or FPHE after the filter, I could change it so the looped return came in after the filter--is that how yours is set up?
'81 Rabbit 1.6D/5-speed, sold '09
'86 Volvo 740 TD wagon, 295k
v8volvo
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Post by v8volvo »

Hmmm...Fatmobile, I read your post again and I don't see how looping back through the heated filter would clog it faster. All that fuel has to be filtered anyway, right? If there's enough crud in the oil to clog a filter in 500 miles by looping through it, I sure wouldn't want all that crud looping unfiltered through my injector pump, right? I think I'd rather have the filter catch it, and then change the $15 filter rather than the $400 IP. Seems like if I filtered the oil well enough (and right now I'm using virgin oil from Costco anyway), I'd be OK....

What do you think?
'81 Rabbit 1.6D/5-speed, sold '09
'86 Volvo 740 TD wagon, 295k
Fatmobile
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vegy filter

Post by Fatmobile »

I read your post again and I don't see how looping back through the heated filter would clog it faster
Filter being equally plugged on either system, pulling 5 times as much fuel through it will cause a high vacuum in the line between the filter and pump.
Fatmobile, do you recommend having the looped return come back into the intake line AFTER the fuel filter?
Yes, so during purge all the flushing are backflushed through the vegy filter. Having some diesel in the vegy filter isn't going to cause a problem. Heating diesel over 160F does make it too thin (loses some of it's lubricity)but since it's mixed with vegy that's not going to be a problem.
but the stock Greasecar system has no final heat exchanger so if I bypassed the filter with the loop, most of the fuel would basically be unheated, which would not be good.
Sounds like you have it figured out. You will need to add some heat to the loop. If you've checked my website you can see I return to the output of the filter and heat the fuel line between the filter and pump.
You could probably get by with taking (a longer piece of) the small coolant line from the radiator to the resevoir and running it beside some of your unheated fuel lines.
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Post by VW cat »

Your problems are interesting, similar to some I've had. I think cold vegy results in a low idle or loping idle as the governor tries to stabilize things. A miss at idle is a poor spray; it may be too cold or you may have an injector that is borderline. Coking around the injector heat shield hole will cause the same poor spray; although switching back to diesel for a while will tend to clear the tip, slightly, resulting in a better idle on vegy, next time, for a while. I have a borderline set-up, soon to be changed, but running my return back to the intake side as Fatmobile does, is a great help.
I have had my injectors out numerous times to clean around the heat shields, also I check the spray each time with the tester. I bend each fuel line just enough to get the socket on. Saves alot of cranking, and I have lots of spare lines, not that I've never needed one. On my son's car I have run the return right back to the tank in the trunk, with a 3/8"fuel hose where it joins into the supply line to get heated all over again, with 7' of HIH. I put the heated filter back there too, but only filter it once. Insulate the injector lines and pump, the cold air over my engine above 40mph causes a bad idle. I had to upsize to 3/4" on my HIH line to get a good flow at idle, and take the heated loop right out of the tank. Too restrictive, probably my choice of fittings but pull your 5/8"heater hose off at the engine and check your flow if it's a homemade system. It's below freezing here and my vacuum guage is still below 1 ". Injector line heaters have got to be a great improvement. Pulling my cold start out on vegy makes no difference, but I have my timing advanced more now that I use vegy. Do you have a hot thermostat? If your injector lines aren't hot, that can't be good, can it? Just my opinion, VW cat. :)
v8volvo
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Post by v8volvo »

VW Cat, thanks for your ideas. I agree, it seems that the key is that even when running on the hottest fuel my Greasecar setup can produce, I can't really feel any heat in my injector lines. I also notice that the symptoms are worst when I've been driving with vegy on the highway for a while, with cold air flowing over those lines. I think I must just be getting coking on my injector tips.

I've decided to add electrical heaters on the injector pipes -- will let you guys know if that solves the problem. I anticipate that it will.
'81 Rabbit 1.6D/5-speed, sold '09
'86 Volvo 740 TD wagon, 295k
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