Help -slipped time

V8 QUATTRO · Post by **V8 QUATTRO** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:41 pm

Can anyone verify my findings on my 1980 dasher 1.6l?

I believe it slipped time. With the timing mark on the flywheel lined up with
the pointer. The IP sprocket is off a bit and the slot in the back of the cam
shaft is not quite parallel with the head. I don't have the special tools. They
seem out enough for the belt to be a tooth or so off. I can barely manage to
get her running and she wont idle , emits a LARGE cloud of white smoke while running very rough. Compression seems decent. Injectors tested ok. Was running good until I did some excessive cranking to try and prime the fuel lines. Is this a interference motor? Can I change out the belt and line everything up without the special tools?

bscutt · Post by **bscutt** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:22 pm

Yes this is an interference motor. You can get by timing it without a dial indicator, but you have to be careful. Get the engine to TDC with #1 cam lobes pointing upwards. Loosen the timing belt tensioner and the pump bolts. Secure the cam pulley, support it to it won't rotate, do not use the cam locking tool to hold it still. I put a ratchet extension through the pulley while loosening the cam pulley bolt.

Anyway get the crank at TDC with the flywheel mark carefully aligned at the mark. Get the pump pulley mark (on the pump side of the pulley) lined up near or at the mark on the pump itself, and get the cam notch perfectly horizontal. Then get the belt back on so all three of those things are aligned. The Flywheel mark and cam flat must be perfectly aligned. Try to find a locking tool for the pump to get the pulley in t he right place. I have been known to use a small deep socket to get it lined up.

I know I'm not being very clear on all this, but the gist of it is that you need to get things lined up using the factory marks and you will get close enough to where the car will run ok. Remember the flywheel and cam must be lined up perfectly with the belt tensioner tensioned and the pump pulley needs to bee close enough to allow you to adjust the pump position to where you can get the marks on it and it's pulley to line up. Once you have the cam & crank right, once again support the cam pulley and retighten the 19mm cam bolt. Not sure of the spec but I'd guess at least 30 ft-lbs or more.

I'm sure there are other more descriptive procedures posted here on on Jack's (the forum owner) tech tips pages.

Hope this helps.

VanagonMark · Post by **VanagonMark** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:38 pm

Before I spent the bucks for the special tools, I used to use a flat file to lock the cam in

if the notch on the flywheel is off, loosen the cam gear, and move it back to TDC ( you can tap the cam gear off with a few slight strokes from a hammer)

check your pump, make sure your notch on THAT gear is as close to the cut in the bracket. TDC, cam locked, and pump at as close to the middle
cut on that bracket as possible, loosen the 4 bolts on the pump. So you can rotate the

and if all else fails, get a six pack out,

easy actually for us that have done it 100 times 100

now my Virgin Head on my Caddy is alllllmost ready to be installed
nice warn day, 70 plus, got some sun, lost my oil sender....so tomorrow we
install the head

calebc3 · Post by **calebc3** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:41 pm

I would try getting cam, crank and IP sprocket lined up first without loosening the 4 IP bolts. Pump timing could be fine but the sprocket could be off a tooth. You can do this w/o the dial indicator and the cam and IP lock are easier to improvise, look at the homemade tools thread.
Always turn it over a few times by hand before engaging starter to avoid potential damage. How does the timing belt look? Is the tensioner working?

VanagonMark · Post by **VanagonMark** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:24 am

You are right, having timed so many times I forget that a first timer might get intimidated.

I had a 1979 Dasher that I slipped the belt one cog. Replaced the idler and lost timing.

My first attempt! Today--we attempt to install the new head on the Caddy.
Took pictures of that New Virgin Head. All decked out in a new cam, new injectors, new valves. I should submit it to Norway for a Nobel Peace Prize Award for Technology!

$400 for the new bare VW head.
$120 in valves and seals
$160 for new injectors
$150 for a Machine Shop to assemble
$50. a new head set.
$35. for a new OEM header downpipe

(I truly hope my Caddy appreciates all this new stuff on his block)

V8 QUATTRO · Post by **V8 QUATTRO** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:43 pm

The belt looks loose. Not sure how loose is too loose but sure does appear to have slipped a tooth or two. This would explain why it runs like crap all of a sudden. Guess I'm lucky it was only a tooth or two. Sounds like I could have bent some valves but I don't think it did. I don't know if the tensioner is working. How does one improvise the tensioner tool?

Vincent Waldon · Post by **Vincent Waldon** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:56 pm

Couple of different ways to improvise a tensioner tool:

- fork with two prongs bent

- coathanger bent with two little hooks

Actually you can get it pretty close by hand... at least close enough that it's not the cause of your engine issues.

You can use a file to lock the camshaft, and a socket to lock the IP sprocket, but IMHO there is no substitution for the dial gauge and adapter needed to set the timing properly. And sadly without the dial gauge you are probably going to get frustrated: smoke, lack of power, hard starts, any or all of the above !! Get the timing belt really wrong and valves will hit pistons... yep, it's an interference engine with very tight tolerances.

Jack, the owner of this board, sells all the tools. A good link that shows how to do the timing is here:

http://www.vwdieselparts.com/injtim.htm

surfcam · Post by **surfcam** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:00 pm

You can stick two drill bits, nails or some pins in the two holes in the idler. Then use a bar to tighten it up. Then try and turn the belt 180 degrees between the pump and cam pulley. If the idler is bad you can double nut the stud and try pull the stud. Thats a easy way to change it if you don't have room.

4BTA 3.9 Cummins Stepvan
86TD Golf
91TD Jetta

VanagonMark · Post by **VanagonMark** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:37 pm

V8 QUATTRO wrote:The belt looks loose. Not sure how loose is too loose but sure does appear to have slipped a tooth or two. This would explain why it runs like crap all of a sudden. Guess I'm lucky it was only a tooth or two. Sounds like I could have bent some valves but I don't think it did. I don't know if the tensioner is working. How does one improvise the tensioner tool?

I found that Harbor Freight sells a cheap 9 buck grinder. The tool used to remove the blade on that grinder fits the pulley tensioner

yup....
exactly

Post by **Fatmobile** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:25 am

Then try and turn the belt 180 degrees between the pump and cam pulley.

90 degrees is closer.
I agree, set the cam/crank correctly first with injection pump in the general area.
Give it a couple turns by hand, then see if it starts.... if not set the injection pump timing and try again.

Vincent Waldon · Post by **Vincent Waldon** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:18 pm

Assuming you can get it started you can search here for "hillbilly tuning"... various people have had luck tuning by ear.. some even prefer it as the engine wears.

surfcam · Post by **surfcam** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:03 pm

Thanks fats for correcting me. I really did have a brain fart.

Post by **Fatmobile** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:32 am

Thanks fats for correcting me. I really did have a brain fart.

Not a real stinky one, but I still had to open the forum windows, freshen this thread up a little.

3Bunnys · Post by **3Bunnys** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:37 am

I think you guys are making this a little too hard!
All indications are that the timing belt slipped/jumped a notch or so. Before that the engine was running good.
So, replace timing belt and tensioner, and get the crank, cam and IP sprockets back in their previous proper relationship and everything will be good. This can all be done by eyeball. No need to monkey with dial indicator and rotating injector pump, no need to loosen cam pulley and reset.
Now if he wants to follow-up with a "TuneUp" yeah break out the tools, but if the bunny was running good before, and nothin got damaged he can just replace the belt and get back on the road.

R

V8 QUATTRO · Post by **V8 QUATTRO** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:53 pm

I installed a new belt and tensioner. Lined up the sprockets with a 11mm deep socket for the pump lock and a three inch brass hinge for the cam lock.
I had to guesstimate the belt tension. I used a couple of awls as a tensioner tool.
She started right up and drove just like before. I am still getting some white smoke when accelerating. She smoked before too.It might be a little worse now but I'm not sure. I'm also still wondering what caused it to slip in the first place. I think it slipped when I was cranking the engine over excessively.
So this is practice for the timing belt job I need to do on my Audi soon.

Thanks for all the input everyone. -J

Former VWDieselParts.com Forum

Help -slipped time

Help -slipped time

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