Need some help....

[520davidb]

I have a '92 NA Jetta (running 99bio) that needed a head gasket replaced. Got it all done and was advised to do the water pump at the same time so got one of those and after much tinkering realized that I need to remove the injection pump from the engine due to the AC bracket.

Long story short I have two problems:

1. Upon re-assembly I managed to get the belt off by 1 tooth cause a slight binding of valve against piston but not realizing this until i turned it over with the starter 3 times. Luckily the second problem had shown itself here

2. The car will not start. I have re-done the belt timing, set the injection pump and aligned all that I can but it will just turn over and over and never catch.

After searching the forums this is what I have tried as solutions:

The pump is pumping at the injectors and the fuel filter is fine as is the stop solenoid (clicking away). Check fuel flow to pump. I aligned the pump and its cam up with the notch on the cover when re-assembling and got the belt and camshaft all correctly lined up. Re-re-aligned everything to spec in my Bentley. Set injection pump to .90mm as speced for the car per bentley and sticker on rad member. Still nothing but turning over and some fuel smell

So a few inquires:

1. did I destroy the head during those cranks? Probability good or bad?

2. could the car not be running because i have yet to put rad fluid in? Is there some solenoid that would prevent ignition if the water was not in it?

3. could I have done something to the injection pump by moving it atop the head and laying it on its side when replacing the water pump?

4. anything that maybe I have missed that you all are savvy too?

Thanks for any advice or recommendations. I lurk here often but have yet to actually post so this is my first.

[82vdub]

To try to determine if you've done anything to the head or piston, a compression check will give you some hints. If these numbers show up as being good, the only way to know if there has been damage to the piston or valve is to pull the head off and check them both. Depending on how much crush area occured between the valve and head, it may be ok. Maybe others will comment more on that.

As for the fuel, the IP may be dry. By loosening an injector line and cranking the motor, is there fuel coming out of the injector line? I wouldn't investigate this too much until you get answers on if there was any damage to the head/pistons first.

[Fatmobile]

The first place to look for fuel isn't the injectors.
Make sure it is moving through through the pump, by making sure fuel is coming out the return line.
Clear fuel line between the filter and pump is a great/cheap diagnostic tool.
Pull the valve cover and cam to see how the buckets are sitting
1* I don't think you ruined the head. Cranking speed is slow and I've heard of people breaking a belt at idle and surviving. Turn the crank by hand before you hit the starter key again.

2* A no coolant situation will not keep the engine from running.

3* No, maybe you drained the fuel from it and it needs primed.

4* Make sure fuel is coming out the top of the pump, get clear fuel line.
Once you have the pump primed and flowing, plug in the power to the pump so fuel can get to injectors and floor it until it starts.

[3Bunnys]

I'll go with FATs on this one......
Verify IP is full of fuel, remove banjo bolt on top of pump that has "OUT" stamped on top of it, you should see fuel, if not, this is a good place to pour in clean fuel to help get everything primed. After removing your dial indicator did you put bolt back in timing hole and tighten, I once failed to tighten and spent an hour going nuts!!!

As for damage...how does the engine crank, seem the same as before?? That should give you an indication if you have valves not closing..

Richard

[520davidb]

Thanks for all the input. I did a little test on an injector hose into a bottle to see if t was receiving fuel and some came out but I guess in hindsight I am not sure how much should come out or at what force it should come out.

Should it just drip or should it be under more pressure? Any advice here could really help me narrow it down.

Once again thanks for all the help.

<b>3bunnys</b> I will try to look in the banjo fitting this weekend and I guess unfortunately I put the timing bolt back in so that is out as an easy but "doh" fix.

<b>Fatmobile</b> I will try the clear tube between the filter and pump too.

[82vdub]

I had stated to loosen an injector line and see if you have fuel coming out. Its a really easy simple way to check to see if you have fuel coming out of the IP. If no fuel there, then as state by myself and others, the IP may be dry. If you cracked an injector line and only a little fuel is coming out, the IP may be partially dry or mostly dry. If it has some fuel in it, it may eventually suck enough fuel by cranking the motor to end up firing the motor. Easier solution is to remove the banjo fitting on the top of the pump and fill it with fuel. After that, button everything up (fuel wise on the IP) and get in and crank it with your foot to the floor. You'll need to fire it enough to run the air out of the rest of the IP and the injector lines, so it'll generally run pretty rough at first but should clear out after a bit of running.

If you cracked an injector line and only a little fuel is coming out, the injector line is a very high pressure fuel line and only a little fuel will come out, but it has lots of pressure behind it. Hard to say whether you had good fuel flow or not. All I do to test for fuel is crack loose the injector line at the injector by about 1/2 to 1 turn.

[520davidb]

So I checked all that I could check without removing the head and could not get it to start.

I have fuel coming to all injectors.

the timing is lined up correctly with respect to the crank and the cam.

the shut off solenoid works correctly.

I reset the timing on the IP but could not get it to read correctly within the range that is specified (0.9mm). When I loosened the bolts and rotated it with the dial caliper in it the caliper did not move. In neither direction could I get it to vary a mm.

I am not sure if I have the IP set up correctly now. Initially when I took dial readings I could get it to vary and moved it to the correct reading but now I cannot get it to do anything.

I pulled the cam wheel and check to see that the line on the shaft was aligned with the notch on the IP. I replaced the cam with the notch in it aligned with the notch on the IP and reset the belt with the cam locked, the IP locked and the engine at TDC and got nothing.

All I get is some smoke from the manifold (it is still disconnected from the exhaust pipe) and when I pulled the breather hose there was noticeable smoke coming from there too.

So anyone got an E-diagnosis for me on this? IP self destructed? piston perforated? I am close to just searching out a used engine and starting from there.

Also anyone in Tucson, AZ know of a good diesel mechanic in town? My wife is getting tired of my weekends spent trying to start this car and my incessant cursing.

Thanks in advance.

[3Bunnys]

Alright.... take a deep breath,,,, Just sounds (reads??) like you're timing is off.... BTW, the wife isn't tired of you're working on car..its coming in house reeking of diesel...OK time to diagnose...
My bunnys are NA 82, 83 & 84,, but I'm pretty sure they are similiar to yours"!!!!!! BTW.. you've thrown (confused) me a little with your wording but we can work through this...


The following three things should line up similtaneously with belt on:::Start with .....

1. Crankshaft at TDC.....verify by looking through the little hole with plastic plug on trans bell housing ....borrow you're wife's bright red fingnernail polish and put some on the mark to help today and in the future!!

2. Check camshaft at TDC position.... if you didn't do some match-marking at belt removal then you will need to remove valve cover and ensure slot in back of cam is dang near parallel with sides of head..

3. Now check IP is half a cog within proper time.. On the back side of the IP sprocket (pump side) there is a slight dimple on the outer edge.. that should roughly align with dimple on pump mounting bracket... (put some of that red fingernail polish on these marks as visual aid)

4. Buy wife new bottle of red fingernail polish and let us know what you found...

Richard

[520davidb]

Unfortunately I have done all of that. Initially I marked the tab (the one right before TDC that sticks out) on the flywheel with paint thinking that that was the TDC mark not realizing that it was the notch a little further counterclockwise.

Anyway then I lined up all the things as stated in your reply with a home made cam lock and the IP pin with the wrong TDC tab.

It rotated by hand at the crank tightly probably indicating a little valve on piston interference but I mistook that for the high compression. I started it a few times and it chugged twice but never caught.

I looked at it again and realized that the TDC mark was the wrong one. I re-aligned all the things, again with the cam lock, and IP pin. Then check the IP timing with a dial caliper. It seemed to read at about .83mm. I reset it to .90mm as indicated on the sticker on the rad member.

Tried to start it but nothing. Never caught or even chugged.

I then checked again the next day just because I thought maybe fresh eyes would catch something and now I can't get the IP to adjust at all. It reads 1mm when reset and I can't get it to dial back to the correct setting (.90mm) no matter what I do.

This makes me think that I am off on a setting at the IP pump but I cannot figure out what to do.

There is a slot in the IP shaft that the IP cam mounts to. Bentley mentions that this should be aligned with the notch in the IP that is at approx 12o'clock position. I removed the IP cam and made sure that the shaft aligned with this notch. I then reinstalled the cam with the notch on it in the same location then reinstalled the belt but still to no avail. Hope that is more clear. I feel like there is something with the IP that I am missing but I can't really figure it out.

[3Bunnys]

I have yet to take on the challenge of disassembling an IP... my hat is off to you!!!!
If I understand correctly, if you were to rotate your crank and thusly your IP thru an entire rotation (360 degrees) you're seeing little or no movement in/on your dial indicator.... If true this would definitely indicate a problem with your pump....
Somewhere on this forum there is a string with at least 100 photos of a pump being reassembled,,, hopefully you can search it out or someone will post the link..
If you disassembled you're pump you know that there is an axial cam that pushes the pump plunger and the dial indicator if installed in and out 4 times per pump rotation....you should be seeing better than 1.00mm (0.040") of movement on you're dial indiacator during each fuel stroke...

Hope all this helps

Richard

[82vdub]

viewtopic.php?t=6694

[Fatmobile]

I breifly looked back through this post... you didn't take the pump apart did you?

There is a slot in the IP shaft that the IP cam mounts to. Bentley mentions that this should be aligned with the notch in the IP that is at approx 12o'clock position. I removed the IP cam and made sure that the shaft aligned with this notch. I then reinstalled the cam with the notch on it in the same location then reinstalled the belt but still to no avail.

Huh?, bentley doesn't say anything about the parts inside the injection pump, which is where the cam disc is.
I figure when you say cam you mean injection pump gear,... the part the belt rides on.
Do you have a key in the injection pump shaft? It's not like the cam, it needs a key.... and the bentley never uses this injection pump keyway to time the engine
There is a mark on the injection pump gear (what I think you are calling the cam) that lines up with the pointer on the IP body.

[520davidb]

Yes I never took apart the IP and by cam I mean gear/cog for the timing belt to run on.

The IP actuates the dial indicator when I turn the engine at the crank but when I rotate the IP to adjust the timing the dial indicator doesn't move. That is when I loosen the bolts that hold the IP to the motor and rotate the IP by hand it doesn't make the dial caliper move at all.

There is a notch in the IP shaft but I noticed no key in there. By key I assume you mean a tab or removable piece that fits in the IP shaft notch and meshes with the gear/cog that the timing belt runs on.

Is there supposed to be a key in there? if so that is probably part of my problem. I have not noticed whether there is a corresponding notch in the shaft interface of the IP timing cog/gear. Is there supposed to be one?

I know of the mark on the cam but my bentley manual says to line up the notch in the IP shaft with the 12o'clock position mark on the IP then place the timing cog/gear on and line that up with the 12o'clock mark on the IP also.

Or have I misread this part?

Argh I am so confused. Dang waterpump precipitated this all. Had to practically remove the whole engine to get at it with the stupid AC brackets.

I wish I was at home to look at this. I feel like this search for answers is finally getting closer. If only my communication skills were suited to oil burner terminology.

[520davidb]

Seems that i have lost the key for the IP timing gear. Never realized there was one in there and so I never noticed that i lost it.

The question is where can I get one if I can't find it around the vehicle?

Could someone post a picture of one or point me to a picture of one I have no idea what to look for?

There is a good chance that I dropped it below the car and we have had hard rains that have washed my carport floor a few times now.

Thanks for your help in advance.

[82vdub]

The IP timing keyway will either be a square shaped key, or one that is flat on one side and curved on the other side, like a coin that is cut in half. I don't know the real answer off the top of my head, but if you look at the IP shaft and it has a straight bottom to it, then it likely uses a square key, If it has a dip at the bottom, it likely uses the rounded key. Any good hardware store will have a selection of keys to choose from. They are used with farm equipment all over the continent.