MisTiming causes engine to blow up

[3Bunnys]

First Klincoln says

THE 20.000 MILES ON THE BAD GEAR IN THE ENGINE HAD PISTON TO VALVE CONTACT THE HOLE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, so what... as everyone knows,,, skipped time is caused by anyone of a number of failures associated with timing belt/timing gear/belt tension/idler/etc... ... not how much klick/klack went on in days gone by!!!!!!!!

Second he tells us

when we put his new pump on we found the crank gear to be bad the crank was o.k nothing wrong with it.

he tells us he found a bad crank gear but the crank was OK..NOTE:..KILNCOLN "the master mechanic who knows all" TELLS US, "The CRANK WAS OK".... this is important info

Third he tells us

when he picked up his car he seen his gear and left it hear so it's mine now.

and here finally he tells us he has the "Old crank gear" which implies to me he put a new crank gear on the above mentioned OK crank......

So I have only one question for Klincoln, actually several, but I'm gonna go for one long one.....

If a new timing gear was put on an OK crank (and I just have to assume everything was torqued/locktited/strectch bolted/etc) how is not your fault if that crank gear got wobble??????

Cause if the crank was sat, and you installed the new gear and it went wobble in 800 miles, just whose fault is that????????????

I'm sure all of us would love to hear Klincoln confirm or deny in short concise sentences....

Was crank SAT????
Did he replace crank pulley???

Course I'll add that a lot of the above abuse assumes crank pulley wobble was cause of problem..... but while I'm being long winded I'll now add, just about any failure in timing train that I can think of other than; reused timing belt that broke, reused idler that seized up, cam shaft seized up, maybe cam gear slippage or (feel free to chime here in guys) would be the shops fault.....

regards Richard

[FineFrank]

when he picked up his car he seen his gear and left it hear so it's mine now. so a thief i don't thank so. doing what i do if your starter goes out and i fix it next week your valve cover starts to leak i did that because i worked on it last right? (not)

If I picked up my car but left my wallet, I'd still consider it mine, and I'd still believe that the person keeping it was a thief.
I certainly wouldn't want him/her for a neighbor.
Trouble with the second part of your statement is that you did work on his crank gear, no?

[JRM]

Does Jack have the 1.6 stretch bolts for the crank? I re-used mine but with red locktight and full throttle on my impact wrench @150psi.
I still feel safe buying a new one since all it takes is turnig the front wheels to replace it.
Scary stuff in previous posts, makes me glad I spent 3 days rebuilding mine as there is zero room for error.
Joe

[libbybapa]

I agree with 3Bunnys analysis completely (except I'm tempted to add a few expletives). From the facts that klincoln has presented, independent of what oldjetta has presented, klincoln OWES oldjetta AN ENGINE AND THE LABOR TO INSTALL IT, along with a sincere apology! Anything less is SUB-HUMAN. He has presented himself to have questionable intelligence, an extreme lack of ethics or professionalism and a thief to boot. Anyone with those credentials shouldn't be in business and I question whether or not they should be institutionalized.

Andrew

[mattbondy]

Lets try to reconstruct one of these incoherent statements:

Quote:
when he picked up his car he seen his gear and left it hear so it's mine now. so a thief i don't thank so. doing what i do if your starter goes out and i fix it next week your valve cover starts to leak i did that because i worked on it last, right? (not)

when he picked up his car he seen his gear
not too bad, i think he meant saw
and left it, hear?, so it's mine now.
odd way to try to confirm his statement with reader
so a thief, i dont thank.
well neither would I, common sense
so doing what i do if your starter goes out and i fix it next week, your valve cover starts to leak, i did that because i worked on it last, right? timeline seems a little odd...

[CoolAirVw]

Wish I had a picture -- the shop is holding it as evidence, even though it is MY property!

Uh, just to let everyone know, a customer at a shop has the right to see his parts, if and only if he asks to see them in advance of repairs. Rarely does anyone ask. So they go in the trash.

If oldjetta asked to see the pulley (or if they just saved it and offered to show it), then saw it and then left it there then it is no longer his. By rights it should have went in the trash. If Diesel Specialists wants to hang on to Old Jetta's trash then that makes Old Jetta's trash Diesel Specialist's Trash which he can keep if he so wishes. My opinion of course. If OldJetta wanted to keep his trash he has that right when he picks up the car but he forfeits that right when he leaves his trash at the shop. I agree the pulley was his till the time he drove away without it.

Diesel Specialists installed a rebuilt engine from Jack Ewald in August 2006.

So this is the "Jack" that provides us with this forum?

Exact words from the repair shop:

"WE DID NOT PUT THE CRANK GEAR ON THE ENGINE THE FIRST TIME, IT CAME WITH IT . THE ENGINE SHOP TQ WRENCH MAY NOT HAVE BEEN CALIBRATED OR A GOOD ONE...THE REASONABLE EXPLANATION FOR YOUR PROBLEM IS THE USE OF A (BAD CRANK GEAR THE FIRST TIME........)THE CRANK GEAR WAS WALKING ON THE CRANK WHEN IT CAME IN FOR THE PUMP."

So the shop is blaming Jack who torqued the pulley 20,000 miles ago for a failure today? Man I sure would like to see some pics of that pulley Kurt Lincoln (klincoln). Anyone know if Jack uses the stretch bolt on all his motors? Was the stretch bolt replaced when they replaced the crank pulley? Was there a charge on the invoice for a new stretch bolt? Is there a stretch bolt on the car right now?

...... a junk yard looked at the car and the rest is (here-say) i need to see the engine to make my call on it!

So oldjetta didn't bring the car back to you to let you analize the failure and no-one has looked at it except a junk yard?

OldJetta I think you should have qualified 3rd party give specifics on the failure. I haven't heard from you what the failure is except that you had a "collision of valves and pistons". I don't doubt thats what happened but the question is why? Did the crank gear come off? Did the cam gear come loose? Did the crank pulley bolt come loose? Did the crank gear turn? Did the crank break? Did a rod come loose from the crank? Was a one-time-use-only stretch bolt reused when the crank pulley was replaced?

How about a Qualified Failure Analisis before we start blaming the last shop that worked on it. We can blame him after a qualified failure analisis. You'll need that in court anyway.

[CoolAirVw]

THE 20.000 MILES ON THE BAD GEAR IN THE ENGINE HAD PISTON TO VALVE CONTACT THE HOLE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow! Is that even possible when OldJetta states, "never had a problem", which is in itself a contradiction because obviously he was having some problem because he needed the injection pump changed, but maybe that was just for leaks?????

Is it possible that crank pulley movement causing timing issues and valve contact "the whole time" was the problem and not the injection pump? Is it possible that contact to the valves caused the head of a valve to break off later? I say yes because.....

I worked on a gas motor once that slipped the timing belt. It was a interference motor because I couldn't turn the crank without the timing belt on. I replaced the timing belt and it ran fine for 3 months then a valve broke. My theory is the valve broke due to the earlier piston contact. I then put a new head on it.

By the way, I'm not defending klincoln or Diesel Specialties. I just think we should be sure before we start throwing mud.

[oldjetta]

There is much discussion about the "junk yard analysis". When the engine blew on I-4 I had it towed to Diesel Specialists in hope that they would acknowledge their responsibility and replace the engine, plus labor. When Kurt deinied all responsibity, even refusing to conduct an engine post mortem, I decided to have it towed to a safe place until I could get a court judgement adainst Diesel Specialists. I noticed at the time we picked up the car that Kurt had removed the timing belt cover so I know he may have been eager to blame a belt failure.

At the safe place, I had the pan removed so I could see the crank and the debris in the pan. The post mortem has NOT been conducted, and will not, until the judge orders it.

Also, there is some conjecture about what caused me to bring the car in for the injection pump. The engine showed symptoms of a failing pump:
-losing power
-losing prime, hard start
-over 200K miles since last pump overhaul (in 1998 by Diesel Specialists)
-I paid Diesel Specialists for a pump test and "professional" diagnosis
-taken together, all this info led Diesel Specialists to conclude the problem was with the pump and recomended rebuilding or replacing
-they also recommended overhauling the injectors which I agreed to.
-In Kurt's own words: "The engine has only 20K miles and can't possibly be the cause of these symptoms"

When the car came back 12 days later with a blown engine, Kurt said: "Obviously it is the fault of Jack Ewald when he rebuilt the engine"

I agree with the observation that Diesel Specialists is dishonest and unscrupulous. I have already filed a complaint with the BBB and intend to start visiting some of the many web sites that allow scammed customers to air their complaints against cheats like these.

All the comments received so far are most helpful to me and hopefully to others dealing with timing issues.

[82vdub]

One thing I'm not chrystal clear on is which crank gear does Diesel Specialists have, the one they took off the engine and replaced, or the one that they installed? Also, have you done an inspection and do you have any idea of what the failure was? What's your analysis of what happened and is the timing belt in one piece, or torn in two? Everyone's suspecting a bad crank gear install, but what do you really think the problem was?

[3Bunnys]

Obviously we all need to take a step back and get more info....

Oldjetta started this post with the words "mistiming causes engine failure" well maybe it wasn't a mis-time problem........if you drop a valve with perfect timing you're gonna have a problem that has nothing to do with timing..........

So is/was KLincoln trying to tell us that he replaced a bad crank sprocket that in The Past May have caused some valve piston hitting ???? and that the problem was a dropped valve!!!!!!

Oldjetta tells us he has dropped the oil pan.... don't know about you guys but that's not where I look for timing problems,, then he goes on to say a post-mortem hasn't been conducted......


At this point I reserve judgement because we are lacking some really basic accurate information.....

I won't go into the blonds comments about communication, grammar and spelling skills...and she's Blond

Richard

[oldjetta]

The gear that klincoln is referring to is a gear about 4 or 5 inches in diameter with teeth that match the belt teeth. The gear has a center hole about 3/4" in diameter with a slot in it. The slot appeared gouged. I don't know where this gear fits on the engine but I am assuming it bolts on to the crankshaft.

The gear on the cam shaft and the pump both look larger than the one he showed me. Kurt did replace this gear.

A new belt was installed at the time the rebuilt engine was installed last fall and it looks to be in very good condition after 20K miles.

As Kurt said, at the time he performed his tests on the injection pump, "the engine is in fine condition and should run for at least another 200K miles"

The reason I looked in the pan was to see if the crankshaft was broken. A big piece of piston blew out the freeze plug and was recovered at the time of engine failure. It appears that a pistion disintegrated and tore a hole in the cylinder wall, letting coolant in to the engine. That would explain the big cloud of white smoke and the loud bang follwed by the sound of crashing pieces.

I agree a post mortem is the only way to know for sure what happened. I will ask the judge to order one be done in addition to ordering Diesel Specialists to replace my engine.

[libbybapa]

I won't go into the blonds comments about communication, grammar and spelling skills...and she's Blond

I thought blond was spelled blondE.

Andrew

[CoolAirVw]

I agree a post mortem is the only way to know for sure what happened. I will ask the judge to order one be done in addition to ordering Diesel Specialists to replace my engine.

How can a judge order Diesel Specialists to replace your engine if a Failure Analisis hasn't been done?

Listen OldJetta. I've been to small claims court 3 times in my 20 years as a professional mechanic. Twice as a expert witness on the side of a customer against another mechanic shop and once against a customer sueing us because his trans failed out of warranty.

Where is your evidence that Diesel specialists caused your engine failure? You have to get a Professional opinion before you go to court, hopefully by someone who will testify for you.

I can hear your presentation now to Judge Judy, "Your honor my engine failed after they replaced my IP.

Judge Judy will say, "Thats circumstancial evidence."

You say, "But your honor I know they caused the engine to fail."

Judge Judy says, "What are your qualifications as a expert witness to testify to that?"

You need an expert to go with you who can testify on your behalf that they evaluated the failure and it was caused by shoddy workmanship on Diesel Specialists part. Listing of heater cores, heater controls, dirty car, ect will mean nothing to the case in point to the judge.

Your opinoin of what caused the failure is negated by the fact that you are not an expert (demonstrated by the fact you paid them to install the motor and paid them to diagnose and install the injection pump). And obviously your biased to your side. I'm not knocking you in anyway, I'm just giving you advise on how to win in court.

Its your responsibility to prove they are liable. The judge wont investigate. To win YOU need to present a winning case based on facts or expert opinions. The judge wont understand that a broken timing belt causes pistons to crash the valves.

Note: Diesel Specialists may be able to be thier own "expert witness" but its negated by your expert witness because they are obviously biased.

[CoolAirVw]

Oh and one more thing,

Judges love to rule in favor of the wronged customer against the Unsrupulous, unprofessional, crooked mechanic shop because they drive cars too and have certainly had some seemingly unpleasant experience with some shop somewhere.

Do this and you'll win in court....

1. State you didn't feel comfortable taking your car back to them because they mess something up every time and then mention breifly some of the problems you had after engine install, then mention the fuel leak that happened after this repair and how dangerous that could have been.

2. Get some professional looking mechanic to testify on your behalf after he looks at the car and determines that deisel specialists caused the problem. Make sure he shaves, dresses nicely and has all his teeth, with some ASE certifications he can mention, some years of experience he can brag about, and have him throw around some technical sounding terms to impress the judge.
Have him state that Diesel Specialists directly caused the problem. Also as professionals Diesel Specialists should have identifed the problem that caused the failure and should have recommended a repair to prevent it. Plus they shouldn't give you a car that isn't safe and reliable. This would be a good time to mention the fuel leak again and talk about cars burning due to fuel leaks. (the judge wont know that diesel isn't extremely flammable like gasoline.)

Diesel specialist will present thier defence as thier own expert witness, which will be negated by your expert witness (especially if he talks like he types here on this forum or if he's missing teeth )

Judge Judy will then base her decision on the fact that they worked on it and either caused the failure or as professionals should have known it was going to fail and should have recommended steps to avoid that failure from happening.

Note: I'm only suggesting this route if and only if the failure was caused by their shoddy workmanship.

Also what amount is the judge going to award you? You need a written estimate for engine replacement that the judge can use as a basis for the settlement amount.

[A1-2-A3]

Who has the damn gong?!! Hit it already!!

You know that info you guys disclose on this forum could be used against you in your court case? I would be carefull what you say.
So you guys figure 100% Diesel Specialists fault? If its fact the car ran 20,000miles with a worn out crank sprocket?(oldjetta said it was at 4-5" gear that had keyway wear) not the crank gear its way smaller but anyways Kurt touched it last and patched it without tearing the engine down cause it probably ran ok at the time and later blew up?
Is that exactly what happened? That what I am getting from reading both your complaints and the defence(as unreadable as kurt's writing is)
Some of the best Techs I have worked with had terrible grammer so I would not judge his mechanical skills on his writing.
His shop DID give you the thumbs up on your engine after replacing the crank gear that fell off later?? Did it fall off after he replaced it and then detonated your engine? If the New sprocket is still on your crank then its not his fault. If it fell off like you say it did? the CRANK sprocket is about 3" and I question oldjetta's mechanical ability if he had to take his car in and get timing and all these other basic repairs done its hard to say if he knows what he is talking about. It is wrong to take advantage of customers and I wold say diesel specialists did that with the shoddy work done and caused many items broken and screwed up(ex. a/c fittings, parts missing)
I really don't see how you guys on the forum can say yeah its this guys fault or that guys fault, this seems so here or there like I read someone else wrote "there are lots of important variables missing and stuff that don't make sense"
I wish to not offend anyone but if someone is being a "crook" I hope they get whats coming to them. Justice is rarely fair and the "system is crooked" So have fun supporting a POS scum lawyer and maybe getting your court costs won back to you or a piece of paper saying the shop owes me this and then they just won't pay.
If you are 100% sure you are in the right then go ahead and ruin their reputation, "The pen is mightier then the sword."
It is pretty cut and dry who made the mistake but I have no proof. I don't believe "everything" I read.