Trouble on the road - part 2. Serious Runaway!

woodrat · Post by **woodrat** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:05 pm

About the WD40 vs ether, the normal starting fluid washes the lubricant off your cylinder walls, WD40 does not. At least that's what I always understood about the difference. I used to use WD40 on my friend's unimog when it had been sitting all winter. Worked like a charm.

I feel for you. I have broken down far from home many times. I think if I was in your shoes I would be trying to tow the car home rather than work on it in a motel parking lot. The fried but almost-new glow plugs make me think it might not be too wise to try to revive it and drive it all that way; it sounds like something is amiss there.

good luck! Glad you have internet access! My diesel truck broke down a year ago in Anacortes, WA with a bad oil cooler. I finally found a shop that said that they knew diesels, so I had it towed there, and they promptly told me my engine was toast, and that for $7000 they would put in a rebuild. I got online and asked my diesel truck forum buddies and they all said to get my truck out of that shop right away, that is was obviously an oil cooler. They were right, and I was much relieved to be able to get such great advice, quickly, when I was in such a tight spot.

diesel_fool · Post by **diesel_fool** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:48 pm

bad news. just got my batteries, installed old plugs and did compression test. compression is not good.

cylinders:
1 - 250 psi
2 - 310 psi
3 - 290 psi
4 - 205 psi

this is compared to all cylinders being in the 380-400 range when I left North Carolina a week ago. Something is definitely not right in the head, block or head gasket region. When the car did overheat during the runaway. At first glance (only took a quick look into the reservoir) there is some oil film on the surface of the coolant. I haven't check the smell of the oil yet... but it seems likely that at a minimum the head gasket is blown.

I'm going to start looking at possibilities for towing it home. I think I have too much in the car (in new parts and personal energy) to donate it or even sell it at a reasonable price. Based on the low compression and obvious signs of head or gasket damage, even if it did start tomorrow with block heater and new plugs.. would be a bad idea to try to drive it home?

Starting to feel desperate now. I appreciate all the encouragement and advice I'm getting here though. Don't know what I'd do without it.

woodrat · Post by **woodrat** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:52 pm

Start looking to rent a truck and trailer. Even if you could revive it, you wouldn't make it far.

Bummer.

diesel_fool · Post by **diesel_fool** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:00 pm

.. best way to tow a rabbit? I've never had to tow before. Am I looking for a full sized trailer or can I put the front wheels in one of those dolly's...

.. suggestions on where to rent a dolly?

woodrat · Post by **woodrat** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:08 pm

Dolly should work fine. I would recommend uhaul for the ease of finding a place to return it when you get home. I like United Rentals, but I don't know if they have them where you are.

82vdub · Post by **82vdub** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:10 pm

I wouldn't use a full trailer unless that was all that you had at your disposal. Call U-Haul or Ryder or Penske (KMart). They do one way rentals all the time (not sure about Penske though). If you don't tell anyone at the place you're calling and have access to a hill or loading dock, you may be able to get the car inside the truck and don't need the dolly. Save some money that way. I own an old Ryder tow dolly and it is one nice little extra piece of equipment to have around and all my friends think so too.

diesel_fool · Post by **diesel_fool** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:28 pm

The only place I've found so far for renting a towing vehicle (outside of getting a huge moving truck) is Thrifty. They have a mid-size and standard-size SUV option. Says Jeep Liberty (or similar) for the mid-size and Jeep Grand Cherokee (or similar) for the full size. I don't know anything about jeeps or towing. Do I need to get the full size? Should I just call them and ask about towing a dolly.

Pup Tentacle · Post by **Pup Tentacle** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:38 pm

Howdy,

Starting fluid is ether, an incredibly explosive liquid/gas. It explodes at the slightest excuse. What is supposed to happen in the cylinder (gas or diesel) is a very fast but cotrolled burning of the fuel. An explosion will cause shock waves that damage things. Explosives are designed to create severe pressure and shock waves which shatter things in close proximity. Controlled burns cause a calculated/known increase in gas pressure. This is also the principle used in firearms.

WD-40 is a light machine, an oil thinner than #1 fuel oil, it will burn as opposed to explode and it is light enough to ignite easily.

As a "rule of thumb" indirect injection engines will be destroyed when ether is used becasue the confining space is the pre-combustion chamber, hence the explosive force is confined in a very small space. VW 1.5L and 1.6L engines have pre-combustion chambers as do GM 6.2L and 6.5L. Direct injection engines (like the VW TDI) usually will tolerate ether (and some other engines are even designed to start on it) because the volume of the compressed cylinder is greater, the piston can move and increase volume, and the pistons and cyclinder are usually engineered to be stronger.

Recently rebuilt a Duramax after a client shot ether into the air cleaner housing. The air cleaner absorbed the liquid ether and allowed the engine to runaway, drastically exceeding it's maximum RPM no load rating. In short, it blew up. We estimated the engine saw 8,000-10,000 RPM before it destroyed itself. No way to shut it down. Expensive mistake for $1.79 can of starting fluid.

When I was in the submarine force I witnessed diesels runaway on hydrogen when doing a battery charge. Only way to shut'em down was to remove the air supply (and consequently the hydrogen fuel too). Then typically they would draw on the people tank for air. Unpleasent at best.

To your VW diesel, engine oil is fuel (bad fuel, but burnable). Vaporized engine oil combined with unburned diesel fuel blowing by the worn out rings that was dumped into the intake through the crancase breather is probably what caused your motor to runaway. Glad you got it shutdown.

When people "hotrod" a diesel, they typically force the IP to flow as much fuel (diesel) as it can and increase boost, first, and when that's not enough they use propane or hydrogen injection. Like NOS for gas motors. This causes EGTs (exhaust gas temperature) to climb rapidly destroying various engine components. Excursions above 1050 F - 1100 F, typically. If they are lucky, the exhaust valve(s) melt causing a lack of compression and the engine stops. If the propane or hydrogen detonates during excessive cylinder temperatures and pressures . . . . . . Ooooopppppssss.

Many current light truck diesels are capable of tripling factory torque and horsepower (1,000+), for a short time.

But I digress.

Pup

82vdub · Post by **82vdub** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:40 pm

If it was me, if I was renting a SUV or truck to haul something, I wouldn't tell anyone what I was going to do with it. That only opens up the door for them to tell you NO.

If you're going to be going over the continental divide, you'll be at a high elevation and that loweres the towing capacity of a vehicle. I think if you find something that has a 3500 lb towing capacity, that would be good enough for you to get your car home. Probably not good for the car hauling your load over the continental divide, but it's a rental, if you know what I mean.

diesel_fool · Post by **diesel_fool** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:51 pm

82vdub - I agree about being on a need to know basis with the rental people. But how will I know if the vehicle I'm renting has a hitch if I don't ask the question and then open up the can of worms?

tawney · Post by **tawney** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:59 pm

Those compression numbers do look pretty bad, but remember that's with a cold engine. A warmed up engine would have significantly better compression; running with low compression isn't going to hurt anything. Seems to me the critical points are these: #1. is the head gasket actually blown? #2. What caused the glow plugs to melt?

#1: It's possible to have a little bit of oil in the water without it being a head gasket problem: check the condition of the oil, even looking at the dipstick can help. If you get it running, loosen the cap on the coolant bottle within a minute of it running; if it's under pressure, then you've got a head gasket problem.

#2: If you were runnning on oil for a significant length of time it could have melted your glow plugs, but it's really hard to believe that practically brand new injectors could have caused the glow plug melt. If it was the engine oil being used by the engine as fuel that caused the damage, then re-routing the valve cover vent will put a stop to further damage. If you get it running reasonably well, (without the valve cover venting into the intake,) and you don't have excessive black smoke at that point, I think you can reasonably assume that the engine oil was the problem.

The safest thing to do, of course, is tow it home, and part of that decision, (even if it seems to pass the examination of the two issues I mention above,) would hinge on the route you have ahead of you to get home: what size cities are along the way, and how far apart? Broken down in cold weather, a long way from any city, with possibly no cell service, might make your current bad situation look pretty 'good' by comparison.

82vdub · Post by **82vdub** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:00 pm

I don't think that most rentals will have a hitch on it from any rental place, unless it's a rental place that is used to renting vehicles for hauling trailers. The only way to know would be to try to visit a parking lot and carefully (to not attract attention and look like a stalker) try to see if bumpers on particular vehicles come with a hole in the rear bumber which would allow you to install a ball in it. I think most SUV's come with a bumper that allows a ball to be installed, but not 100% certain on that. Otherwise, you would have to ask, but I'm sure that the rental place will say the vehicle can't be used for towing and will not rent the vehicle to you after that.

diesel_fool · Post by **diesel_fool** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:08 pm

I agree tawney. It could get a lot worse... and at this point, the idea of towing it home doesn't seem so bad. Its most likely more affordable than another break down would be also. My trouble now is that I'm in such a small town that there isn't any rentals here or anywhere nearby and there isn't even a greyhound or public transportation to get me to a nearby town to get a greyhound, to then get to a rental place. St louis is the nearest rental town and that is 70 miles.

At this point, I'm thinking that if I could get it started with new plugs and a block heater tomorrow morning, that I could try driving back to st louis (or forward to springfield) and check out rental options. I doubt that everyone will agree one way or another... but I'm wondering if it starts tomorrow, even if there is head gasket damage... will I cause immediate engine damage by going 100 miles on the interstate. I can't think of any other way to get myself out of this town.

My main reason for suspecting the head gasket is blown or other damage resulting in the low compression is because only a week ago I did a compression test and got significantly higher numbers (380-400 on all cylinders.)

Pup Tentacle · Post by **Pup Tentacle** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:26 pm

Bummer on the cylinder pressure, sorry. Even if you could get it to run (probably on the first three), I wouldn't try to limp it 2000 miles. It'll get nothing but worse.

I concur with the dolly idea (for what it's worth). Use a "come along" to get it on the dolly. Nose first. Driven tires on the dolly. In towing, my idea has always been bigger is better, regarding the towing vehicles. A dolly will not load the rearend of the towed vehicle as the weight is on the dolly. Tongue weight less than a full grown man. Rent what you can afford. If you hit hills, go slow. Call a Jeep dealer or the garage and ask what it would take to mount a ball on the selected vehicle. But I sure would NOT let the car rental company know what I was planning. It will give them a reason to say NO for some unknown obscure company regulation. Truck rental companies are different, they expect their vehicles to be used to tow.

One could tell the rental company that you were considering purchasing one of those types of vehicles, you want to rent one for an elongated test drive, and could you check it out. Look on the web for vehicle spec's for towing weight, etc. . .

Years ago I bought a universal tow bar (5,000 lbs towed weight) from Sam's club (about $150) it has saved my buns a bunch of times. And then a used car hauler.

82vdub · Post by **82vdub** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:36 pm

Pup Tentacle wrote:Use a "come along" to get it on the dolly. Nose first. Driven tires on the dolly.

Actually, the easiest way I've found to get a lightweight car onto the dolly is to align the car up to the dolly, then adjust the ramps on the dolly. When this is done, just lightly push the car so that the front wheels get onto the ramps (you can try to push it on all the way, but likely you won't be able to do it), now set the car to be towed parking brake and put the car into neutral. Then, get in the vehicle that's doing the towing and back up essentially pushing the towed car onto the dolly. Once the wheels set into the tray, stop backing up and strap the car down and don't forget to release the parking brake. It's that easy to get on, and to get it off, set the parking brake and drive out letting the towed car come off the dolly.

For the remainder of your trip, the further west you go, the less populated it is. You may want to consider this in your attempt to drive it home. It could leave you stranded many miles from any town, and many miles from any sizable town. Just something to consider.