The Price of Diesel

[82vdub]

My only other gas choice besides my wife's car gets 13 MPG.

[Ziptar]

I gave up the car all together... It's the commuter rail and subway for me here on out. The car is just for fun now.

[JRM]

wish i had that option, company transfered me 80 miles away from my newly built home

[Ziptar]

I had to get a new job 1400 miles away from old one to have access to public transportation, but I am glad I did.

[hagar]

Price of Diesel ------Op-Ivy do me favor ----rent a film about "Standard Oil" this OIL frenzy started in Titusville PA -----with a SALT drill.

It is a battle between Ida Tarbell (tarbarrel) and that Rocky fella -----

When did hagar find out about problems in the Oil puddles ? about 1945 ---and it was an Amerikan Oil engineer who blew the whistle about 1935.----and he was right.

hagar.

[Hexar]

filled up a tank of gas for my civic, 118.9 per liter, the same store has diesel for 120.9 per liter, so the price is going to get even soon?

[hagar]

Op-Ivy who do you know on Nassichuck Rd. ??????? PM if you like.

The , " Hummingbirds " arrived here 24 Mar 2008 ----We like global WARMING here --EH ? ---- sure was a nice winter. ----Aeroshell W120 stayed in the sump ---No problems.
That oil is sure long lasting.----expensive , BUT it is a premium Lube.

DO a blotter test regime and bring when you get here.---VERY important part of "Hillbilly-TUNING".

hagar.

[be158]

I recently went to zambia... look at this pic i took .. looks fake but not



3600kwacha = 1 us dollar

6000x3.8= price per gallon 22,800/3600=6.33 US $ a gallon

[hagar]

Op-Ivy ---- I just had a long talk with your girl-friends Mother ---what a woman --WOW.

hagar.

[surfcam]

I did a little reading and found out that one of the reasons gas is lower in North America is that there is a surplus of gas in Europe because of all the diesels they have and they are shipping it to the U.S. Another probable is that the U.S. is full of old refiners. Pipe still refiners that can only turn out 15% diesel. New refineries can turn out a higher percentage of diesel with in a certain band. They haven't built a new refiner in a very long time because nobody wants it in there back yard. The future my crystal ball broke so your on your own.

[backwoods]

Everyone loves to point fingers, but it is a fool's errand. Western oil companies, American and European, control neither the cost of the raw materials nor the price of the product, it is all determined by auction on the world merchantile exchanges. American companies in particular control a measly 6% of world oil production, and almost all the major producers are foreign state-run monopolies. As for howling about their profits, if they were to make no profit would there be more fuel? Not hardly. Last stats I saw (2005) put USA at 18% consumption of world oil (15 MB/d out of 83MB/d), and falling. YES consuming less will help and the high price is going to do just that, but high energy prices are here to stay because of basic physics and the explosion in Asian consumption which is only beginning to ramp up. We are too accustomed to thinking we are the center of everything, and it is not true anymore.

Alternatives come into the market as they become economically viable, and faking viability with government subsidies or taxes merely shifts the cost to your left pocket instead of your right one, but you pay it in the end. If there were a cheaper alternative it would already be in place in Europe and Japan where the fuel taxes make the cost so high, yet that is not the case. It might begin to be viable now, and when it does industry will be there because they act on sane economics not political expediency. The taxes raked in vastly more than the oil companies made in profit, so where are the wonderful breakthroughs of governments' managing the windfall?

China and India alone are nearly 3 billion people - even at 100 mpg when they start driving at rates even remotely approaching those of the west they will totally swamp the market, nothing whatever done elsewhere is going to make much difference. Time to quit whining and blaming companies and accept the hard fact that the world is hitting a resource limitation that will play out by lowering the west's standard of living as it raises the east's. The easy ride is over.

Biofuels are a joke. If the entire corn and soybean crops of the USA were converted to ethanol and biodiesel it would meet barely 10% of present demand, then what do we eat?? Look at what small scale ethanol production primarily just to replace the MTBE gas additive has done to grain prices already. Until better technology comes along, it is symbolism over substance. Heavy oil & tar sands are the next best source for liquid fuel, and Fischer-Tropsch synthesis from coal is next most cost effective. But none of it is cheap, again due to basic physics - it takes a lot more inputs for the same level of output versus simply pumping oil.

And as some as said, refining issues are also causing some problems, both in terms of capacity and in terms of tight specifications. The ULSD is more difficult to refine and accounts for some of the difference between heating oil & diesel, and maybe it forces some lost efficiency, i.e. you end up losing more of the base stock (which also goes for jet & heating) for the same amount of output, but I do not know. Catalytic reforming to make heavier from lighter has been around a long time, but again it is more costly and has losses, so yes you can tweak the process to favor one type over another but you may end up with less total output.

And as for what happens to the money the oil companies are making, I'm not optimistic that a government agency full of lawyers & bureaucrats would have a better idea of how to use it wisely to develop more efficient and economical alternatives to petroleum than those whose survival depends on making something actually work. So they are not throwing vast amounts blindly into the problem just because it is available, but since when is that a good idea anyway? Maybe they are being deliberate and careful about the longterm path, because if one is unwise and your competition is wise, you die in the marketplace. Government doesn't go out of business no matter how stupid it acts, the players just exchange chairs.

[scottmartin49]

I'll agree with you on the biofuels drawback as far as production costs go. ANY "fossil" fuel has the potential to be supplied cheaper than any harvested/produced fuel; but here's the thing, there's many many thousands of acres in North America with harvestable biomass both currently and potentially and they're all convertable to liquid fuels.
There is a long path along which the "invisible hand" of capitalism is forced to move between current and potential. It's these in-between times that we call "crises".

[backwoods]

Yup yup you're absolutely right, a crisis exists while it is unclear what the better path is going to be, since investing heavily in the wrong one means unnecessary pain. I hope things such as biomass become more viable with improved conversion technology, but regardless, eventually the rising cost of fossil fuel extraction as the easier supplies get depleted will begin to drive their cost past the cost of alternatives ... there will have to be an eventual switchover.

[Fatmobile]

Biofuels are a joke. If the entire corn and soybean crops of the USA were converted to ethanol and biodiesel it would meet barely 10% of present demand, then what do we eat??

I hate that logic. Biofuels are all junk because I mention a couple and they won't do enough of the job.
You left out methane,... doubt you were going to eat anything that that was made from.

Lots of wind power going up.
Photovoltaic panels are becoming more efficient and should be able to produce power at the same price as fossil fuels soon.
Alternative energy to power electric cars for all the short trips.

Taking the CO2 from smokestacks and using it to grow algae, which can be pressed for it's oils is catching on. Waste product that no one is eating.

You also left out conservation. Nothing will get Americans to stop using a gashog just to move their but down the highway,... except high fuel prices. Use dropped after Katrina. We are just getting into the beggining of these high fuel costs. I bet we are already using less fuel than last year.
I'm not sure all of the ethanol debate is logical. The world is starving for protein. Alcohol isn't made from protein. It's made from sugar/starch produces a high quality protein as a byproduct. It's sudden surge in use as a biofuel has helped raise the price of food but I'm betting other factors are at play too.
This biofuels surge is just getting started,... like it did during the 70s when fuel prices got high. Lot's of cutting edge ideas that don't raise the cost of fuel or food. Don't give up on all alternative fuels because you can't do enough with just a couple.

[surfcam]

Well I just pieced my crystal ball back together. I think there's going to be a place for all the alternative energy sources. Its like when the automobile came on the seen there were thousands of manufactures but there is an eventual shake out and buy out. I think electric car has the best chance at success. A short range one thats cheap could satisfy the major use of car which is the short hop to work and shopping. It useless for me but small towns don't buy most of the cars big cities do. As conventional energy sources increase in price alternatives become move feasible and conventional is displaced and replaced.