Time for the usual starting issues @ this time of year. I know my car has quite low compression - 250-300ish. Starts fine when warm but now in the mornings it's hit or miss. It seems that after I burn the glow plugs a cycle or two, if it doesn't fire off after about 15 cranks, it isn't going to unless it cranks for WAY too long. Usually its fine and pops off after 2 or 3. If it doesn't it sounds like 1 piston is firing. Then if I keep cranking another one will and if I starts after ~ 1 minute of cranking the 3rd and then the 4th will fire. Oh, and if it starts right away it doesn't smoke. If it doesn't fire right away, I smokes like CRAZY....white, really bad smelling smoke (don't really know how to describe it) out the exhaust pipe AND out the air intake.
I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if there is any way to tell if the problem is the rings or valves with out performing a leak-down test? After hearing these symptoms any ideas? Anything else to check for? Or do I have to get a leak-down tester?
And...all 4 glow plugs are fine....I visually checked them. Newer starter (~1 year old). NEW battery....Odyssey PC1500 (chosen after reading the battery thread) 2 new - 2 gauge wires @ starter and new 2 gauge grounds wires. All connections just redone.
Thanks in advance.
`86 Volkswagen Jetta NA with 9 gallon marine tank, transmission cooler tank heater, TIH, FPHE, VegTherm, Line Heater Specialist Injector Heaters on Injector Lines
Certainly sounds very much like low compression... a shop should be able to do a compression test economically and you can move to a leakdown test if the compression test is inconclusive.
Vince
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
2001 silver TDI Jetta Malone Stage 1.5 , 2001 blue TDI Jetta SBIII 216s Malone Stage 3
1970 Bay Window bus
Gone but not forgotten: 1969/1971 Beetles, 1969/1974 Westies, 1979 Rabbit, 1986 TD Jetta, 1992 gas Jetta, 1994 TD Jetta
Some shops may have a smoke generator system that they put into the cylinder and see where the smoke comes out.
Ever think of installing a manual button to run the glow plugs? You could hold the button while cranking hoping to get it to start a little better. The other idea that I always use in the winter is to plug it in using a timer that turns on the block heater a couple hours before it's time to leave. Of course, this doesn't work when the car is at work, but you get the idea.
Everybody else lists their cars here - but not me.
Oh yeah, I have an upper radiator heater and an oil pan heater that gets my engine nice and toasty after about 2 hours. I have to park on the street thought and I haven't run (and buried so it doesn't cross the sidewalk) the extension cord yet this year. I wasn't having problems this early last year. Either it's colder out this year or it's getting progressively worse. I suspect it's getting worse.
I have a diesel compression tester and tested it myself. I don't, however, have a leak down tester.
`86 Volkswagen Jetta NA with 9 gallon marine tank, transmission cooler tank heater, TIH, FPHE, VegTherm, Line Heater Specialist Injector Heaters on Injector Lines
wewantutopia wrote:If it doesn't fire right away, I smokes like CRAZY....white, really bad smelling smoke (don't really know how to describe it) out the exhaust pipe AND out the air intake.
Um. Pretty sure you should never get smoke out the intake unless the timing is off or your valves are way out of adjustment. Fix that, and I bet your cold starting performance improves.
'82 Diesel Rabbit • '88 Fox (RIP) • '88 Jetta (work in progress)
That's what I was thinking.......thanks for the confirmation.
`86 Volkswagen Jetta NA with 9 gallon marine tank, transmission cooler tank heater, TIH, FPHE, VegTherm, Line Heater Specialist Injector Heaters on Injector Lines
Yup....not exact though. They were between 250 and 300 psi.
`86 Volkswagen Jetta NA with 9 gallon marine tank, transmission cooler tank heater, TIH, FPHE, VegTherm, Line Heater Specialist Injector Heaters on Injector Lines
wewantutopia wrote:Either it's colder out this year or it's getting progressively worse. I suspect it's getting worse.
You said you visably checked the glow plugs. Did you remove the injectors and look into the hole to see how well they glow? If you have non-Bosch glow plugs, I'd put them first on my suspect list. I bought Autolite glow plugs one spring, that same fall car wouldn't start well just like you describe. Go figure, the Autojunks didn't glow at all, only after 10k miles and 8 months.
Also check the valve timing as others have suggested, but your problems seems to have been somewhat quickly developed.
Everybody else lists their cars here - but not me.
Yeah, I took out the injectors and watched them glow. They're Bosch. I had the same problems last year they just started later in the year...mid to end of October and I had started plugging it in by then.
`86 Volkswagen Jetta NA with 9 gallon marine tank, transmission cooler tank heater, TIH, FPHE, VegTherm, Line Heater Specialist Injector Heaters on Injector Lines
wewantutopia wrote:Yup....not exact though. They were between 250 and 300 psi.
Hmmm.. so pretty darn low for reliable cold starts... and well below the wear limit of 412 psi.
With white smoke in the intake manifold it's possible there's a gross valvetrain timing issue (although on a diesel it's pretty hard to be way out without the valves hitting the pistons) but perhaps more likely some of your low compression is intake valves not sealing... a leakdown test would help pinpoint.
In any event, I don't suspect your cold starting will improve until you tear down the engine and get the compression back up.
Vince
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
2001 silver TDI Jetta Malone Stage 1.5 , 2001 blue TDI Jetta SBIII 216s Malone Stage 3
1970 Bay Window bus
Gone but not forgotten: 1969/1971 Beetles, 1969/1974 Westies, 1979 Rabbit, 1986 TD Jetta, 1992 gas Jetta, 1994 TD Jetta
Bummer...that's what I was afraid of. Thanks for the input.
`86 Volkswagen Jetta NA with 9 gallon marine tank, transmission cooler tank heater, TIH, FPHE, VegTherm, Line Heater Specialist Injector Heaters on Injector Lines
Vincent Waldon wrote:In any event, I don't suspect your cold starting will improve until you tear down the engine and get the compression back up.
Should be able to just pull the valve cover and verify lifter clearances to eliminate that possibility. While you have the valve cover off it's easy to check the cam timing too.
'82 Diesel Rabbit • '88 Fox (RIP) • '88 Jetta (work in progress)
Advance the timing a little and try again.
You are pulling the cold start lever?
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
(chosen after reading the battery thread) 2 new - 2 gauge wires @ starter and new 2 gauge grounds wires. All connections just redone.