Front wheel fell off.

diesel freak · Post by **diesel freak** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:42 am

I have a set of Konig aftermarket 14" Rims that I have been running for the last two years. I bought them from Discount Tires and have them rotated and balanced at least twice a year. The guys hand torque the lug nuts and I always watched them do a good job. Last night I was driving home at about 45MPH and my front left wheel fell off. The lugs just seemed to stripout and I came to a complete stop on my rotar disc. Has anyone experienced this? I am thinking that the lugs were made out of some inferior material that caused them to pull out of the threaded hub. I could only find two of the lugs in the road but they were totally stripped like someone yanked them out. My other question is if I replace all four rims how large can I go. I see alot of 16" 4 bolt pattern rims on Craigslist for alot less than my 14" new.

Vincent Waldon · Post by **Vincent Waldon** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:07 am

That sound you hear is a million VW mechanics smirking.

Smirking because they evidently see this a lot with aftermarket rims.

VW wheels and rims are specifically designed to be "hub-centric", meaning that the hub post is an integral part of supporting the weight of the car....the lugs are not enough.

There's lots of 4x100 rims out there but most of them are designed for a wide range of cars and have a centre hole that's too big (you'll see them listed as "Fits Honda/Mazda/Volkswagen"). According to VW the hole for the hub needs to be the exact right size as well for a snug fit over the hub itself.. else at stock torque values the wheel will gradually (or suddenly) work itself off centre, with the result being that the lug bolts loosen and/or shear off.

At least that's the official party line from every VW mechanic I've ever talked to. A parts car I bought recently had rims that looked right but musta come off something else because the hole in the centre is just a bit too big... and I hate 'em. Can't keep the lugnuts tight... and I'm having repeated issues with vibration at highway speeds. They have my winter tires on so I'll live with it and check the lugs weekly, but off they come permanently in the spring.

Having said all of the above... there's many many folks out their happily running generic aftermarket rims with no issues.... dunno... perhaps they've used an impact wrench on the lugs to make 'em tight enough, or like you had them retorqued regularly.. but YMMV.

82vdub · Post by **82vdub** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:09 am

That sure sucks and fortunately, I have not had this experience. I've read that with aluminum rims, you should retorque the lug bolts after 20 or 50 (or so) miles of driving as they will work loose sometimes. I suspect that the lug bolts worked loose which caused the wheel to move around causing stress on the bolts. Then when things let go, the wheel essentially ripped out the lugbolts from the rotor. The lug openings in the wheel are all probably all enlarged, which is also a result of the wheel flopping around the lugbolts, which could explain whey there are not threads on them. Fortunately, you are ok.

caveman · Post by **caveman** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:24 am

82vdub wrote:That sure sucks and fortunately, I have not had this experience. I've read that with aluminum rims, you should retorque the lug bolts after 20 or 50 (or so) miles of driving as they will work loose sometimes. I suspect that the lug bolts worked loose which caused the wheel to move around causing stress on the bolts. Then when things let go, the wheel essentially ripped out the lugbolts from the rotor. The lug openings in the wheel are all probably all enlarged, which is also a result of the wheel flopping around the lugbolts, which could explain whey there are not threads on them. Fortunately, you are ok.

This plus what Mr Waldon said. Even some VW oem mags were problematic if not tightened properly. The 6 spoke mk2 cabrio rims, fox 6 spoke and 93-96 passat mags in particular. My procedure to make sure they didn't come loose was- tighten with gun using a 90 ft/lb torque limiting socket, put on the ground, tighten with torque wrench, drive around the block, retighten. At the second tightening after the spin around the block there would always be at least 3-4 bolts loose. It got to the point that i had to convince the service manager to make customers come back in a week or 2 to retorque them again to be 100 % sure, after the front wheels of my fox got loose in a few days even i tightened them properly. The other way is like the idiots who use their gun to tighten them so tight that it would take a 4 ft breaker bar to remove them, never mind what the poor customer would stuck trying to remove the bolts on a sunday night, on a dirt road, in the rain, with the bar that VW supplied.

VWCaddy · Post by **VWCaddy** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:26 am

How much of the lug bolt thread was actually inside the hubs? When I went from steel to alloy rims on my '81, I had to pick up a set of longer lug bolts in order to have adequate thread engagement with the thicker alloy wheels. You should have a least 1 bolt diameter of threads into the hub.

Could also be the bolts were over torqued at one point and finally the weakened threads just let go. I find using a little anti-sieze compound on the threads keeps the threads running smoothly and you never have to struggle to get them tightened or loosened.

82vdub · Post by **82vdub** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:45 am

VWCaddy wrote:I find using a little anti-sieze compound on the threads keeps the threads running smoothly and you never have to struggle to get them tightened or loosened.

Won't this also allow them to come loose easier?

I read somewhere on this forum that there's different lug bolts for steel and factory VW aluminum wheels. Depending on the aftermarket wheel used, it's possible that the lug bolt used was not the proper one for the application.

bvolks · Post by **bvolks** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:52 pm

Also, if you're running alloy wheels with the longer wheel studs and have a steel wheel for a spare make sure to have shorter studs with you to use with the spare. I never realized the alloys had the longer wheel studs and when I blew a tire early one morning and put the steel spare on I heard click, click, click as I started driving. The wheel stud ended up destroying the piece that runs between the brake shoes.

VWCaddy · Post by **VWCaddy** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:38 pm

82vdub wrote:Won't this also allow them to come loose easier?

Never had a problem with my lug bolts loosening. The anti-sieze compound is mainly designed to prevent the bolt threads from galling or rusting inside the threaded holes in the hub. Proper application is important:

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive ... 00006.html

By keeping the threads lubed and clean, you avoid having a hard time breaking the lug bolts loose when removing the wheel and then torquing them down they torque down smoothly without any false/high torque reading due to the threads jamming up in the hole.

82vdub wrote:I read somewhere on this forum that there's different lug bolts for steel and factory VW aluminum wheels. Depending on the aftermarket wheel used, it's possible that the lug bolt used was not the proper one for the application.

Yep, different length of the threaded part of the lug bolt changes for sure. Also, you need to be careful about not using an alloy lug bolt on a steel wheel as the bolt will thread in too far and at least on the rear end may go in so far as to contact the rear brake parts, making a horrible screeching sound (BTDT).

MPalm · Post by **MPalm** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:39 pm

If the center hole is larger than the hub you need this:

The lug nut on a steel rim also has a steeper kone shape, alloy rims are softer and need a larger contact "area" between the lug nut and rim. VW steel rims have a ball seat lug nut (lug bolt)
Aluminum rim lug nut:

VW type Steel rim lug nut:

Op-Ivy · Post by **Op-Ivy** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:37 pm

The stock hub size on a VW is 57.1mm

So you need to fill the gap between that and the wheel hub size. AFAIK most wheels can use universal hub rings except for TSW and a couple other brands.

tawney · Post by **tawney** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:12 pm

VW factory lug bolts for the alloy wheels also have notches in the rim of the head, (somewhat like the top of a castle wall,) to distinguish them from the bolts for the steel rims. The difference in length is about 1/4", or 6mm

Post by **Fatmobile** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:46 pm

Ther aftermarket aluminum wheels on my Golf need the conical lug bolts and the hubcentric spacers.
I think the VW steel and alloy wheels all use the bell-shaped lug bolts, but different lengths.

MPalm · Post by **MPalm** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:43 am

Fatmobile wrote:Ther aftermarket aluminum wheels on my Golf need the conical lug bolts and the hubcentric spacers.
I think the VW steel and alloy wheels all use the bell-shaped lug bolts, but different lengths.

Yep thatÂ´s right. I think all aluminum rims except VW use conical lug nuts/bolts.