Old guy Old Rabbit---both Happy.

Technical questions and answers concerning all models of VW diesel vehicles.

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hagar
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Old guy Old Rabbit.

Post by hagar »

SAGA : Sorry fellas I have cancer fully verified.

hagar.
82vdub
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Post by 82vdub »

Sorry to hear that hagar. I will continue to lift you up in prayer.
Everybody else lists their cars here - but not me.

I have too many to count
tripseven
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Post by tripseven »

Aw man...I feel bad for you hagar. Sorry you got that one. Hope you can still go skylarking since we all know that always puts a smile on your face!
rabbit_man
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Post by rabbit_man »

Well I'm sorry to hear that.......I'll pray for you, perhaps God will give you more time here on earth.
hagar
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Post by hagar »

SAGA : thank you guys , I am deeply touched.

So hagar is told : you got cancer ...----- that was a shocker . then after surgery they said NO DRIVING for 2 weeks , heck that was worse.

SO ? hagar crawled out of bed , and got in the drivers seat in Bunny "Ugly Duckling" and went skylarking. . Behind the steering wheel ? hagar is in his Nirvana. (Vallhalla).

hagar..
hagar
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Old guy Old Rabbit.

Post by hagar »

SAGA : so Duckling and hagar went skylarking , but where ? EH ? , south to Sigrid Hawkes so called "Yard Sale" my lord how far we come from days of want and need.

I never saw a yard sale before , this one blew my socks off. It was put on by Sigrid and her sister Lenora (wonderwoman) and it was a disgusting display of the life of the have too much people.

I am for the down and out people , through and through. SO ? this was a pain in my butt.

But I absolutely Love those two sisters , so ? what can I say. yes I had fun.

hagar.

PS : still in horrible pains.
hagar
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Post by hagar »

SAGA : I followed a very interesting discussion on Dan's this morning . This forum is overdue for the same. (Summer HEAT).

. The optimum temp for a 1.6 L VW DIESEL ? it is a compromise between optimum Ignition Temp and structural limitations ie Aluminium head on Iron block and so on..

I shall quote from Dan's :

Heat bothers me, especially when it comes to my 82 1.6L NA caddy.
The temperature gauge has been setting at the low end of the gauge at about the third mark. Since my temperature sensors on the head are both 120 C, I decided to start a diagnosis process.
First I documented how long it takes to reach operating temperature. In north Texas, this time of year, it takes about 4.5 miles of driving. Then I switched the temp gauge wire and the glow plug wire on the sensors. Went for a drive after the engine had cooled down. Same 4.5 miles and the needle stopped moving, but this time the needle settled at the center of the gauge, i.e., 6 1/2 marks on the gauge. The gauge stays there while driving at 68-70 mph. When the engine is idling and the fan cycles on, the needle drops to about 5 1/2 marks.

When I measured temperature a hose near senders I got 78 C
Top metal heater hose 67 C

So I know I need to replace one 120 C sender.

What is the optimum operating temperature of a 1.6L NA diesel engine?

Is there any relationship as far as temperature range for the gauge?

Is there a maximum temperature that can be registered on the stock gauge?

What would happen if I connected the sender to a 150 C temperature gauge?

Sender and guages should be used together as designed. They guage reads
electric current and is calibrated for a paticular style sender which allows
a current flow given a temperature.
Switching either out for other parts of unknown design may or may not work
accurately.

end of qoute .

After reading the whole thing I got the impression that us diesel aficionados have a BALD spot right there., SO ? let do something about it.. EH ?.

hagar.
MPalm
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Post by MPalm »

I agree, the coolant temp subject is interesting.
I have always imagined that a diesel engine want's to run as hot as possible, well not quite that hot but hotter than a gasser anyway.
I was amazed by the rating of the thermostat for my Peugeot, 83C :shock:
I've forgotten the rating of a VW diesel but to me 83C sounds really low, but I guess the engineers at Peugeot know more than me :wink:
Golf IV TDI -98 330000km
mattbondy
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Post by mattbondy »

A few somewhat relevant passages from "Introduction to Internal Combustion Engines" (3rd edition) by Richard Stone.

"Typically 20-35 per cent of the fuel energy passes to the engine coolant." (p. 429)

"Of the heat flow to the coolant, about half comes from in-cylinder heat transfer. and most of the balance flows from the exhaust port. The heat flow from the exhaust port depends on its geometry, and the extent of its passage through the coolant. Exhaust ports are now sometimes insulated; this reduces the heat flow to the coolant. The higher exhaust temperature promotes further oxidation of the combustion products and increases the energy that an exhaust turbine can convert to work." (p. 429)

"... aluminum alloys soften at temperatures over about 200 degrees Celsius, ..." (p. 476)

"Secondly, the top piston ring groove temperature must also be limited to about 200 degrees Celsius if the lubrication is to remain satisfactory." (p. 476)

"Raising the compression ratio also increases the in-cylinder gas temperatures, but this does not necessarily lead to an increase in the heat flow to the coolant. The higher compression ratio increases the work output from each charge that is ignited, and thus the exhaust temperature is lowered. Consequently, the heat rejected to the exhaust valve and exhaust port is reduced, and this can offset any increase in heat flow from the combustion chamber. As the compression ratio continues to be increased, the gains in work output reduce and the surface-to-volume ratio of the combustion chamber deteriorates, so there will be a compression ratio above which the heat flow to the coolant increases. However, this is not necessarily a compression ratio that is likely to be encountered in practice, ..." (p. 480)

"In recent years, there has been much interest in the application of ceramics in compression ignition engines. The simple argument is that ceramics have a much lower thermal conductivity than metals (one to two orders of magnitude) so that the energy flow to the coolant will be reduced, and the higher combustion temperatures will lead to more expansion work. However, the largest thermal resistance is in the thermal boundary layer adjacent to the combustion chamber, and this will not be affected much." (p. 483)

"When Moore and Hoehne (1986) applied a 1.25 mm PSZ coating to a cylinder head, there was no net change in the fuel energy rejected to the coolant." (p. 485)

"In absolute terms there was no significant change in the heat flow to the coolant as engine brake efficiency fell. The piston insulation has a direct effect on the heat flow to the oil, as the undersides of the piston were cooled by an oil spray. These results should be sufficient to demonstrate that the use of ceramics does not produce a significant change in the heat flow to the coolant." (p. 485-486)

Unfortunately, I was unable to recall or find very direct statements about temperatures. Basic thermodynamic models for engines assume that we compress air (do work), heat it up (combustion), extract work from the accompanying expansion, and then cool it down and use the same air all over again. These models are improved by taking into account chemistry and the combustion process so that the expansion is not just air expanding. For the Otto cycle (spark ignition) the heating of the air after compression is assumed to occur instantaneously (these models dont usually consider time anyways). Diesel cycle assumes combustion (heat addition, heating of air after combustion) occurs at a constant pressure. I hypothesize this is because the compression ratio is usually high so slight piston movement radically changes the combustion chamber volume for compression ignition engines.

That gets a bit off topic but an important point is that if you heat the air up a lot during combustion you have to cool it all the way back to the starting point by extracting work and just cooling it down. Some crazy math and wild theories tell us that it is impossible to cool it down by just extracting work. Actually, as odd as it seems there is another cycle called the Carnot cycle that is the most efficient cycle for running a heat engine. In this cycle combustion does not even raise the temperature of the air (fluid).

I do wonder how well these ideas translate into predicting the performace of real devices.
1986 NA diesel Jetta
- future societies will mine for precious oil beneath my parking spot
hagar
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Post by hagar »

SAGA : Vwdiesel] temperature gauge/sender on 82 NA diesel ken1

Yes ken started the discussion . read my lips this is important to 99% of forum members.. yes hagar too.

is a 1983 VW Rabbit temperature system Reliable ? IMHO it is garbage. . Lets install a aircraft system. But this is about what we have EH ? yes. .You can all find the discussion on Audifans.com look for Archives (super for dial-up gang). .

Here is what got me started on this thing. All (most) of the real stalwarts we all rely on had problems. answering kens questions .Just iimagine when our dear Loren the master himself had problems.

Temperature senders do not send voltage to Gauge. It is a current system. SO? the sensor has to be a variable resistance of some kind. .VW uses several different types. We are blessed like Dans to have information from Roger Brown northern Kalifornia.

I am in the middle of analyzing The Duckling so I shall try to report here. . Nuff to say I always err on the safe side. All my VW diesels are run very cool.

hagar.
stopping
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Post by stopping »

I have used the senders in electronic projects in the past.... very useful. They are what is known as a thermistor. They have the inverse resistance properties of a normal resistor (or a wire)..... as the thermistor heats, it's resistance goes down. Conversely when cold it's resistance is higher.

You can image more current running to the gauge when hot, pushing the gauge high.... less current when cold and the gauge stays low.
hagar
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Old guy Old Rabbit.

Post by hagar »

SAGA : "some like it hot" especially DIESELS..

our resident Swede said : I agree, the coolant temp subject is interesting.
I have always imagined that a diesel engine want's to run as hot as possible, well not quite that hot but hotter than a gasser anyway.

I hagar (resident Dane) fully agree BUT our VW diesels are too delicate to use max. temp.

For the newbies here I say the Germans are tricky Amerikan thinking is no good, , here is a couple of examples. Radiator is not an up and down flow , it is crossways. , side to side .That makes "burping" difficult. The whole flow system is complicated and calls for a special Thermostat. And the turbo is more complicated it includes a Heat exchanger on the Oil filter. Notice I call the "senders" sensors. , why ? because they detect temperature or fuel quantety. yes I know the Bentley calls them all Senders.

In the Dan's discussion senders were called all kinds of names like Uhhhh no. Wrong on two counts. The temperature senders are variable
resistance devices. They do not send voltage, they provide differing
resistance to ground.. Look at the wiring diagram.

I could be wrong but I seem to recall that the difference was
superceeded so that the gauge and GP relay sender part #'s were
compiled into just one sending unit for both applications.
Loren

Are you sure? I thought those were thermocouples?

Yes, I think they were initially different, then the same and then different again with
the GP sender changing from a variable resistor to an open/closed bi-metal switch:.
Roger

> Are you sure? I thought those were thermocouples?
>

Pyrometer senders are thermocouples. All the temp senders
are varistors. (I think that's the right word)
Loren

Nope, not varistor. Thermistor. At least that's what makes the most sense
from the explanations of what they do. Looks like the varistor is some kind
of a circuit protection device.

from Roger's VW pages. I stand corrected as it is ohms and not volts (I should have known that but


> Nope, not varistor. Thermistor. At least that's what makes the most sense
> from the explanations of what they do. Looks like the varistor is some
> kind of a circuit protection device.
>

Yes, that's what I was thinking. Just didn't come out right. :-)
Loren

There you go fellas a bit of extract from the discussion. Only Roger knew for sure. (hats off to Roger)

If weather holds I shall get gauges working properly in The Duckling..

yesterday was interupted by a call from Wonder , she asked me if I had Welding gloves (this was early in the morning) she told me she had two Cougar kittens in her van , gloves for handling them. I love cats so I was there in 10 minutes. Her sister Sigrid has a cat door and the cougars walked right in and mixed with Sigrids 100 or so cats. Those kittens were so cute I can't find words. They are now flown to Smithers BC. for a new home.

hagar.
Last edited by hagar on Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
idhoho
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Pumas in the Pantry!!!!

Post by idhoho »

Ah Svend..... Knight in shining armor... well perhaps a bit tarnished but a KNIGHT all the same! Sorry I have been so seldom here for you on the forum but it does not mean that I do not think about you my good friend!

I have been derelict in my duties to the diesel bunnies! My new job has now taken me to RENEWABLE ENERGY! Obama Admin has "stimulated" the industry and my Federal Employer is trying to meet the challenge. Private industry is also picking up momentum!

Don't dispair my good man! There is hope for humankind! There is also hope for the planet... It will prevail no matter what we silly people do but it would be rather nice if the planet could prevail in a similar order that it has progressed all these many millions of years instead of a radical adjustment.

It will be what it will be as it will be with you! Keep on Skylarking! My diesel is running fabulously with the new engine and all the fun upgrades that I've installed. Wish we could go skylarking together! Take care my man!

Chuckles.... your voice of reason!
hagar
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Post by hagar »

SAGA : for you newbies idhoho is one of our older stalwarts , and my literary guardian for many a year. Nice to hear from you my friend. (say hello to you know who EH ?).

Yesterday Friday 05 June 2009 was a real winner. The morning was spent helping wonder and Sigrid rescue two Cougar kittens. . And the afternoon was The day of Anni EH stopping . One good looking cook. She told me that she drove that Nissan SUV all the way from Montreal . We got along right off the bat. . Hope I see her again.

Did she say why she would be intrigued by an Old geezer like me ????.(I don't mind)...

How do I calibrate my VW temperature system ? I put the sensor in a cup of water and heat to boiling then I note where the gauge is indicating SO ? if the sensor is faulty or wrong type I change. I also check to see if voltage regulator is working. . If voltage regulator is faulty it will show up as Temp and Fuel varies together.

hagar.
hagar
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Post by hagar »

SAGA : now you know how I calibrate , BUT how do I find out if calibration is needed EH ?. simple I have a big SS ASHCROFT 50 F to 300 F gauge to install in coolant reservoir . Yesterday I tested "The Duckling" finest running diesel I ever fooled around with,. She runs cool and I like it , about 170 F in reservoir that translates to something higher on cylinder head. . (will report later).

On hagars scale of importance Oil pressure is a strong 10. and Temperature on Head is a strong 10..

On 5 speed tranney 2.0 Lites is a strong 10. (lest we destroy fifth gear).

All hagar's Rabbits will be fitted with a primer bulb and "Boiler Gauges" in Manifold ,Oil, pressure. And Temperature and manual glow plug system (small Ford 4 terminal starter relay). NO power wires through fire wall.

A pictorial may follow . . Here a Rabbit does not need Power steering or A/C read my lips.

hagar.

PS : I spray lots of dry molly on rack and pinion really works (NO grease) .
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