Pathfinder Problem, possibly IP?

[fenixrises]

Hi all,

I have a 1980 1.5 ltr na VW diesel that was marinized by Pathfinder, a Candian company now extinct. The engine with reduction gear is installed in my sailboat. The boat and I are currently in American Samoa, a small island in the south Pacific. According to the name plate on the belt guard it is
Typ 088.2/M344
Serial # of engine is 03514.
1471 cm3
It is basically a marinized VW industrial engine.

About a week and a half ago I started the engine and let it run for about two hours. All was fine. Then two days later I tried to start it again. It sounded like once or twice a couple of cylinders tried to fire but then nothing. I have tried numerous things, listed below, and it still will not start or even fire on a cylinder or two. I am perplexed as to why.

I have a primer bulb of the type used on outboard motor fuel tanks mounted between the fuel pickup line and the secondary filter. This aids in bleeding the system after filter changes. There are two fuel filters, both of the water seperator type. The secondary filter has a clear bowl making it east to see sediment and/or water contaminants, none present. The primary filter is a "spin-on" type and is not mounted on the engine itself.

Since then I have tried numerous troubleshooting tests that I can do without special equipment. This is what I have done.

GP circuit pegs amp meter when first energized then settles to 40 amps. I removed the #4 GP for inspection to see if it was burned by faulty injector. It was fine. Others are quite a bit more difficult to remove so have done nothing with them.

Removed the Stop Solenoid. Attached 12v. It cycles easily to Open and Close position.

Bled the system with the aid of the primer bulb by cracking the pickup banjo at IP. All air purged to that point. No start.

Crack each fuel line nut at each injector while cranking engine to bleed any further possible air. No air bubbles, no start.

Remove fuel line at each injector and inspect fuel flow from end of fuel pipe while cranking engine. Fuel "pulses" from end of each fuel pipe. It does not "squirt" out. Rebleed all. No start.

Today I removed the timing belt to turn the IP by hand. For each 360* pump cycle there is fair resistence at each 90* corresponding to pumping fuel to each cylinder.

I have no way of knowing if the resistence equals sufficent pressure to open injectors or indicates proper operation. I also do not know the volumne of the "pulses".

I have noticed that occasionally in the past it was necessary to pump the primer bulb a few times to get the engine to start if the engine sat for 4 or more days.

By mistake I have turned the engine backwards, that is CCW rotation by hand a number of times. Would this damage the IP?

Any further tests I can do? Remember I am out in the middle of the ocean at a small island. There is no service here for this type of engine.

I am a fair mechanic but far from expert in diesel. Not afraid to tackle anything but am limited in knowledge and availability of special equipment.

Swapping out parts may not be practical as new/rebuilt are not returnable and getting them here requires some expense and time delay.

IP failure has been suggested but it seems strange that engine ran fine one day then two days later no go.

Thanks for your help in this matter,
Fred aboard "SunShine"

[82vdub]

Welcome to the forum and I wish I was somewhere warmer than where I currently am.

I would say that essentially you have two major problem areas: fuel and glow plugs. With you cracking the injector lines at the injector and as the engine cranks fuel comes out, this pretty much rules out fuel issue (IMO). It's possible the timing belt slipped, but this would have had to happen on the last engine shutdown or on the first re-attempt to start. So, I don't think timing is it. The glow plugs may show fine on the amp meter and test ok when removed, but if they don't glow, they don't glow. Is there an engine block heater and any means for plugging this in to pre-warm the engine? If you can get the engine warm and the engine fires quickly, that points to glow plugs. I don't believe turning the engine CCW did anything to any critical parts, I've done it before. I'd look a little closer at glow plugs. Next place you get to where you can purchase a good set (I'd recommend only Bosch glow plugs), you may want to pick up a spare set or two.

[coke]

Pull the glow plugs out - all of them, and test them each individually on a battery or battery charger (use 10amp setting)

If they checked out fine, it is still possible the timing slipped. Pull the valve cover and verify that when the engine is at TDC, that the camshaft is also properly aligned. Its possible the cam gear slipped, though I doubt it, its still possible.

If all this other stuff checks out fine, then I would have to guess the woodruff key in the IP has sheared off.

These are all educated guesses based on your current diagnostic work.

[Fatmobile]

Marine diesels are commonly dealing with algea in the fuel,.. because of the moisture.

I suspect a fuel problem.
Maybe a restriction.
Do you have clear fuel lines?
You need to be able to see if there is air in the fuel and where it is.
1/4" vinyl works great for this,.. on a Rabbit.
A vacuum gauge on the fuel line will let you know about fuel line restrictions way before there is a problem.

Put a piece of the clear fuel line on the output of the pump and suck fuel all the way through the system and out the top of the pump.
Priming to the front of the pump doesn't fill the pump.
There might also be a small leak that lets air in when it is shut off,
for example; if the small lines between the injectors are leaking;
fuel can syphen back to the tank as air is pulled in.

[fenixrises]

Hi all,

Tested GPs, all work.

I attached a manual vacuum pump to the return banjo and pumped. A whole string of air bubbles came through the clear line on the way from the IP to the vacuum pump. I then tested all the supply lines from tank to engine. All were fine. I then disconnected the small return line from the #1 injector to the return banjo and plugged the hose. After clearing some residual air from the connections I got a clear flow but only a small amount.

Connecting the vacuum pump to the return line with the small return line attached and blocked and then pumping does not result in a flow of fuel through the injection pump. Nor does pumping the supply line with the primer bulb result in fuel flowing through the injection pump.

I created a vacuum with the pump and pumped the primer bulb at the same time, still no fuel flows through the IP. Yet as stated previously when turning the IP fuel does flow through the steel lines to the injectors. Presumably the high pressure part of the pump will not allow fuel to simply flow through the pump unles the pump is turning.

If fuel should flow through the pump when it is not turning then is there internal blockage of the pump? Opinions based on experience and duplication of this test?

While algae in fuel can be a problem I can see the fuel in the bowl of the secondary filter as well as all the fuel I have now pumped through the system. It is quite clean and is not "old" fuel that has been sitting in the tank for months.

I have tried to start the engine again, numerous times, but no go. So I am still at a loss as to why it would run fine then two days later, now a week and a half, fail to start.

Take care and thanks for the input,
Fred

[rabbit_man]

You should be able to push fuel through with little effort, on my rabbit I can unhook the return line and blow in it pressurizing the tank and fuel will spill from the where it was connected on the IP. I just tried it to make sure .

Try removing the return banjo and cleaning it. It has a restiction in it that could've clogged up. While it's out you could crank it or pump your primer bulb and see if diesel spills out. Let us know how it goes

[fenixrises]

Hi all,

Checked return banjo. Very tiny hole was clear. Poked a small wire in it to be sure.

With the small return line from the injectors connected to the banjo and a clear tube from banjo to a container I pumped the primer bulb. Fuel does flow through the system and out of the clear tube. I doesn't take much flow to clear air from disconnection then clear flow w/o air bubbles.

Have once again tried to start engine, no go.

I have good clean fuel.
Clear fuel lines and fuel flowing through IP and further through injection lines to injectors.
No air in fuel system and no leaks in suction side of fuel lines.
Functioning Stop solenoid.
Functioning GPs.
Timing checked and found correct.

As far as I can see there is nothing else left to check for proper operation. Yet the engine will not start. It will not fire on even one cylinder.

So is the IP bad? And if so, would it go bad with no prior warning by diminished operation?

I am at a loss. Removing the IP is not that big a deal. However shipping it round trip back to the states for inspection and repair will entail at least two weeks and a fair amount of expense. I would almost certainly return the injectors for a rebuild as well. And what the heck why not replace the GPs with new ones as well. But what if all that does not fix the problem.

On top of that hurricane season starts down here in just a few more weeks.

What's next?

Thanks all for the input,
Fred

[coke]

Did you pull the IP pulley and check to be sure the key hasn't sheared off?

[Fatmobile]

Yep, that would screw up the timing.

Soo fuel is now flowing readily through the pump?,
in from the filter and out to the tank anyway right?
Any idea why it wouldn't flow through earlier?

Are you getting any smoke when you try to start it?

Got your foot to the floor? Takes awhile to fill the lines, purge air, not much fuel flow to do it at idle.
I do worry about filling the cylinders with fuel and hydrolocking it by cranking it with foot to the floor for too long,.. but it hasn't happened yet.

[fenixrises]

Hi all,

Have not removed timing gear but can do that tomorrow and let you know. May also remove stop solenoid plunger in case it is sticking after being installed. I this a good idea?

Fuel is flowing through, no problem. Fuel will not flow with small return line from injector to banjo removed and blocked. In otherwords no fuel flow with small line disconnected. That is why it did not flow earlier.

I have tried full throttle doesn't seem to make any difference.

I cannot crank the engine too long as my batteries are near flat from cloudy days and much cranking. I can only recharge from solar panels as I am at anchor with no access to 120v power.

Once again my thanks to you,
Fred

[coke]

I would definitely pull the pump gear and see if the key is sheared off. If your crankshaft and cam timing is dead on, that is where I would check next.

[Quantum-man]

Fenixes wrote:
Remove fuel line at each injector and inspect fuel flow from end of fuel pipe while cranking engine. Fuel "pulses" from end of each fuel pipe. It does not "squirt" out. Rebleed all. No start.

If you are getting the above, then the pump is working normally wrt fuel. Remember, fuel only squirts out if lines slackened.
It is only a small pea sized volume of fuel, and no pressure can build up unless you create an opening the size of a needle...

Check glowplugs, timing and compression.

Check that the diesel pulse comes out of #1 @ or close to TDC compression stroke for #1, simply by cranking with a wrench, with ignition on, but glowplugs unpowered.
Unscrew nut and lift[nut] out of the way to injector #1 and the welling of diesel is easy to spot.

[rabbit_man]

I'm a little confused, you say you unhook the little injector to banjo hose and no fuel comes out. It doesn't come out anywhere? Or just the hose?

It should come out the banjo.

Make sure the IP timing gets reset right, some have got it 180 degrees out.

And the fuel you get out the high pressure end sounds right.

[fenixrises]

Hi all,

The key on the IP pully is fine. So no problem there.

When I remove the small return line from the #1 cylinder and block the line going to the return banjo I cannot draw fuel through the IP with the vacuum pump. Fuel will also not flow through the IP with pressure applied to the supply line. The fuel will only flow out the small return line from the #1 injector. In other words fuel only flows through the small return line when pressure is applied to the fuel supply line or a vacuum is applied to the return line/banjo fitting with small return line attached. So the fuel is only flowing through the small return lines from the steel injector lines but not through the IP directly from the banjo.

Have checked timing, it is OK. GPs also OK.

Have no means to check compression. Remember I am at a small island in the middle of the Pacific and no one here has test equipment for this engine.

I can check to see if fuel flows from #1 injector pipe when at or near TDC though most likely this will be OK also as all timing factors correspond.

I am also going to remove the plunger from the Stop Solenoid because there is a small possibility that is is sticking when installed.

After these few additional tests I will be at a loss for reasons why the engine will not start.

Thanks again for the input,
Fred

[coke]

Just out of curiosity, did you ever think to take the air box off and check the intake to make sure its free of restrictions and barriers?