Pathfinder Problem, possibly IP?

[82vdub]

I'm a little perplexed by this one. It sounds like the IP has a blockage in it. Can you remove the inlet fuel banjo and see if there's something inside blocking fuel flowing through the pump? You can try to remove the plunger on the fuel solenoid. Only downside is that you won't be able to kill power and shut the engine down. You'll have to starve it of air or fuel to kill the engine.

I was going to mention trying to run the engine from a jar of fuel to isolate the fuel system. However, if you're removing fuel lines and can't get it to initially start, then I don't think the fuel line is an issue. If it was an issue, it likely would start, then die shortly afterwards.

[Quantum-man]

Hi all,

The key on the IP pully is fine. So no problem there.

When I remove the small return line from the #1 cylinder and block the line going to the return banjo I cannot draw fuel through the IP with the vacuum pump. Fuel will also not flow through the IP with pressure applied to the supply line. The fuel will only flow out the small return line from the #1 injector. In other words fuel only flows through the small return line when pressure is applied to the fuel supply line or a vacuum is applied to the return line/banjo fitting with small return line attached. So the fuel is only flowing through the small return lines from the steel injector lines but not through the IP directly from the banjo.

Have checked timing, it is OK. GPs also OK.

Have no means to check compression. Remember I am at a small island in the middle of the Pacific and no one here has test equipment for this engine.

I can check to see if fuel flows from #1 injector pipe when at or near TDC though most likely this will be OK also as all timing factors correspond.

I am also going to remove the plunger from the Stop Solenoid because there is a small possibility that is is sticking when installed.

After these few additional tests I will be at a loss for reasons why the engine will not start.

Thanks again for the input,
Fred

Fred , there is something wrong with your setup

A basic set up is as follows:
Fuel in the tank.
Two lines coming from the tank. One is the supply, and the other is the excess return.
The injection pump has a vane pump built inside that lifts/sucks fuel up from the tank through a filter, and into the pump.
This vane pump fills the main chamber of the injection pump untill it is full, then the excess goes out the back of the pump and into a 2 way banjo.
It does this whenever the pump/engine is turned, even if the stop solenoid is off.
The banjo has two outlets, one is the return back to the tank say 1/4" ID, and the other has the 1/4" OD, line coming from the injectors...
If this small line is pulled off the injectors, then it should spurt into the air with fuel, when running, and certainly leak when cranking.
What you are seeing at this point is fuel going the wrong way.
It is fuel from the pump that would normally be going back to the tank.
If you blocked this line, and looked at the fuel comingfrom the little barbs on the injectors, you would find [on a good old Euro set at least] mere sweating of the diesel out of the barbs.

Fuel will not suck out of the injectors; if it does then there is a very poor injector operating.
So, these barbs only exhude diesel that has reached the spring area of the injector.
The better the match of the nozzle to the needle, the smaller the amount of fuel.
Thus in operation the small fuel lines contain a pretty well static flow of fuel that is more like a canal, than a river...

Leaving those lines attached is essential to suck from somewhere down the main return line through the banjo and through injection pump.
If with the small lines properly connected you create a strong vaccuum when trying to suck the fuel through the pump, then there is some kind of blockage. This could be a hand primer valve faulty, or maybe a secondary electric lift pump back towards the tank on the supply line,hat needs to be switched on or even perhaps a blocked fuel filter.

Please try and understand my 'English English' and compare with what you have on your engine.

Mark

[fenixrises]

Hi all,

Removed plunger from solenoid, engine still did not start.

Fuel pumps out #1 injector at correct timing of pump to cylinder.

To Mark and all.

The fuel flows easily from tank to IP inlet. No clogs in fuel line or tank pick up or filters. In a marine setup the fuel tank has a seperate vent line for air to escape when filling fuel tank otherwise the entire system is similar to an automotive installation.

I have a primer bulb attached to the fuel pick up line between the fuel tank and the secondary filter. Primary purpose of this primer bulb is to purge air from filer(s) after changing either the secondary or primary filter.

Additionally I can apply pressure to the fuel line all the way to the fuel inlet on the IP with the primer bulb. When I do this the fuel DOES flow out of the return banjo when the small return line from the #1 injector is disconected. Fuel DOES NOT flow through the small return line from the #1 injector.

Alternately I can put a vacuum pump on the return banjo that normally goes to the tank and apply a vacuum to the fuel system. If I disconnect the small return line from the #1 cylinder fuel DOES flow through the IP but not as much as when pushed by the primer bulb. Earlier I thought there no flow at all, my bad there. Attaching the vacuum to the return to tank fitting on the banjo with the small return line attached to the banjo sucks in a lot of small air bubbles. I suspect that is because the small return lines do no have clamps on them and the hose(s) to barb connections are a bit loose due to the hoses being old.

To recap. Fuel flows through the entire system. The is no blockage or restriction that I can detect. There are no leaks of fuel out of the entire fuel system. Air bubbles only come when a vacuum is applied to the return banjo and the bubbles come from the small return connections only.

The stop solenoid functions properly.

The glow plugs glow and the circuit draws approx 40 amps as per the VW shop manual, 9 amps per GP.

The IP pumps fuel at the right time to each cylinder, but I do not know if the pressure or volumne is the correct amount and have no way to test that. The key on the IP pully is OK. The timing is OK according to the VW shop manual that I have. That is the flywheel mark visible through opening in bellhousing. Dimple on IP pully lined up with indicator mark on IP housing. And finally camshaft in correct orientation at TDC.

Same thing for engine compression. I have no way to test. I can turn the engine by hand with a socket wrench on the end of the crankshaft and each cylinder feels like it requires the same force to turn through each compression cycle. There are none of the normal indicaters of a blown head gasket. I checked the forum and followed the list. The two most obvious being No water in lubricating oil, No lubricating oil in water.

The same problem exists. Engine ran fine two weeks ago. Two days later would not start. No sign of deteriorating engine function prior to engine refusal to start.

What's next?

Thanks again for all the input and suggestions,
Fred

[coke]

Only two things I can think of, since its getting fuel and air. Is the wire going to the stop solenoid getting 12v when the key is ON and in START? Same thing for glow plugs. There should be 12v on them when the key is on and while cranking. Since its a marine setup, I'm not certain they used a standard relay setup and its likely a switch hooked to a solenoid.

Did you ever try removing the stop solenoid plunger and try starting it that way? You've covered all the bases, minus a compression check for obvious reasons. Those glow plugs appear to be the old slow glow plugs, They can require a lengthy glow cycle. How long are you letting them glow before cranking?

Are you sure the quality of the fuel is good? There is no possible way water got into it at all? This problem is perplexing and mind bending for me. Did you ever have a chance to check the airbox to make sure something didn't climb into the intake tube?

[Quantum-man]

Can't be much wrong with it...

Hi all,

Removed plunger from solenoid, engine still did not start.

Fuel pumps out #1 injector at correct timing of pump to cylinder.

By the above I assume you mean the pulse from a loose line, as previously discussed. There is a little test that you can do to check your injectors whilst cranking. It's a little messy, but with some old Hawaiian shirts tucked under, shouldn't be a problem and another box that can be ticked off:

Remove your high pressure injection lines and reinstall them on your pump upside down.
Remove your injectors and screw them onto the lines upsid down.
Plug the small hose that normally goes to the injectors from the banjo, with a small screw.
Disconnect glowplug supply, and crank for a few seconds, until hopefully the injectors start creating pretty vapour clouds.
Compare sprays with each other for similarity.
Stop, paint the boat or something, but leave as is for a few hours, then repeat. Pump and injectors should have remained primed, and quickly resume cloud making.

Mark injectors with indelible pen just to simulate your working engine, and if reusing heat shields keep them in their own position too. To Mark and all.

The fuel flows easily from tank to IP inlet. No clogs in fuel line or tank pick up or filters. In a marine setup the fuel tank has a seperate vent line for air to escape when filling fuel tank otherwise the entire system is similar to an automotive installation.

I have a primer bulb attached to the fuel pick up line between the fuel tank and the secondary filter. Primary purpose of this primer bulb is to purge air from filer(s) after changing either the secondary or primary filter.
This clearly works, but check that it also allows free flow when no being squeezed
Additionally I can apply pressure to the fuel line all the way to the fuel inlet on the IP with the primer bulb. When I do this the fuel DOES flow out of the return banjo when the small return line from the #1 injector is disconected. Fuel DOES NOT flow through the small return line from the #1 injector.

Alternately I can put a vacuum pump on the return banjo that normally goes to the tank and apply a vacuum to the fuel system. If I disconnect the small return line from the #1 cylinder fuel DOES flow through the IP but not as much as when pushed by the primer bulb.

Remember the small barb has a cross sectional area of about 1/20 of the main return barb, so will be in excess of 20 times as hard to suck fuel through. Earlier I thought there no flow at all, my bad there. Attaching the vacuum to the return to tank fitting on the banjo with the small return line attached to the banjo sucks in a lot of small air bubbles. I suspect that is because the small return lines do no have clamps on them and the hose(s) to barb connections are a bit loose due to the hoses being old.

It would seem that some engines suffer more when there are air leaks between the injector bleed off lines than others,
If my mind serves me correctly, the Golf/Jetta setup seems to get fuel draining back and loosing prime at any opportunity.
My Quantum doesn't seem to care
If the lines fit the barbs tight enough to have no diesel leaks, then sucking air through is an unnatural event, as in operation there is the slight positive pressure from the diesel... the bubbles might be worth investigating later.

To recap. Fuel flows through the entire system. The is no blockage or restriction that I can detect. There are no leaks of fuel out of the entire fuel system. Air bubbles only come when a vacuum is applied to the return banjo and the bubbles come from the small return connections only.

The stop solenoid functions properly.

The glow plugs glow and the circuit draws approx 40 amps as per the VW shop manual, 9 amps per GP.

The IP pumps fuel at the right time to each cylinder, but I do not know if the pressure or volumne is the correct amount and have no way to test that. The key on the IP pully is OK. The timing is OK according to the VW shop manual that I have. That is the flywheel mark visible through opening in bellhousing. Dimple on IP pully lined up with indicator mark on IP housing. And finally camshaft in correct orientation at TDC.

Same thing for engine compression. I have no way to test. I can turn the engine by hand with a socket wrench on the end of the crankshaft and each cylinder feels like it requires the same force to turn through each compression cycle. There are none of the normal indicaters of a blown head gasket. I checked the forum and followed the list. The two most obvious being No water in lubricating oil, No lubricating oil in water.

The same problem exists. Engine ran fine two weeks ago. Two days later would not start. No sign of deteriorating engine function prior to engine refusal to start.

What's next?

Thanks again for all the input and suggestions,
Fred

[82vdub]

Lengthy response listing all you've done. I'm still on the glow plug idea. These engines are pretty much: fuel, air, compression, timing and glow plugs. As Coke mentioned, how long do your glow plugs take to glow, and when you tested them, how did you test them? You can test them by amperage, voltage and all that, but if they don't glow, or just start to glow at the end of their cycle, they don't work. This is a 100% guaranteed method of knowing that the glowplugs function:
http://www.greenbaypartsworld.com/vw-glowplugs.jpg

[rabbit_man]

It sounds like the IP is fine.

I wonder if the flywheel TDC mark is in the wrong place? The only way I know of to verify is remove the #1 injector and poke a thin piece of wire down the hole onto the piston top, put it at TDC and see if the mark is correct.

That wouldn't explain why it wouldn't start in the first place though.

No matter what it should at least smoke when cranking!!!!!!!

[Fatmobile]

The little divot on the end of the crank will tell you if the flywheel is off.
Flywheel, I don't even know if it's got a flywheel.

...but the crank pully should have a bump, it should sit at about 7:00-7:30
when the engine is set at TDC.
You can also test compression with a wrench on the crank bolt.
Turn it forward, when you get near the top of the cylinder; see if it will push itself backwards,.. if it does compression is real good.

Do you have clear fuel lines?
,. think I asked before but don't remember the answer.

[sailraka]

John at Pathfinder Marine's email address is: pathfinder@pathfindermarine.com

I'm pretty sure he's still around and might have some ideas. He really knows these engines, especially the marinized ones like yours.

just a couple of thoughts: any chance of an exhaust obstruction in water lift/ exhaust?
Starter motor turning at full torque ? (going bad or low battery charge)

compression check would tell you a lot - ask around, someone in Samoa might have a tester

cold start lever on ip ?

most mechanics will tell you I'm crazy - but I used a super tiny shot of starting fluid on a VW/pathfinder (mine) once after trying everything else to get it run - it fired up and ran. Be very very careful if you try this and use just a VERY small shot. Not recommended but if all else fails, maybe.

I would be very interested to know what the problem turns out to be. Good Luck

[rsxsr]

No one has mentioned the crank sprocket keyway. I have seen them smear so bad the engine would not start. The pathfinders did use flywheels, but have an SAE bellhousing. I seem to remember there was a timing mark and a hole to view it.
How does the engine sound when you crank it? Does it sound the same as it always did? It would not have lost compression from wear overnight. Was it getting harder and harder to start leading up to this point? When did you fill the tank last? Bad Fuel? Someone suggested setting up a auxilary fuel supply. I have a rig I made that allows bleeding the injector lines while cranking the engine with the injector metal lines cracked loose at the injectors. Once I get a good squirt of fuel from each line nut, I tighten them down and start the engine off of my fuel rig. Once the engine starts, before the rig empties, I transfer the supply line back to the fuel filter. You could have a bad pump seal that allowed the pump to loose its prime while sitting. I have never used a vacumn pump to prime one of these engines, so it is a little hard for me to follow that advice and the results you are seeing. mark

[itsme]

I'm wondering if there has been any resolution to this problem. I has the same engine and same problem!

[ChadFitzger]

Hi all,

Have not removed timing gear but can do that tomorrow and let you know. May also remove stop solenoid plunger in case it is sticking after being installed. I this a good idea?

Fuel is flowing through, no problem. Fuel will not flow with small return line from injector to banjo removed and blocked. In otherwords no fuel flow with small line disconnected. That is why it did not flow earlier.

I have tried full throttle doesn't seem to make any difference.

I cannot crank the engine too long as my batteries are near flat from cloudy days and much cranking. I can only recharge from peimar solar as I am at anchor with no access to 120v power.

Once again my thanks to you,
Fred

I had similar problem and I did not had the option of charging with solar charger.. I will now get solar panels to face such terrible situation.

[itsme]

I resolved my problem by replacing the starter with rebuilt from napa. Hit the glow plug switch for 6 seconds and then hit the starter button and it fired right up! Only took a second to fire up. Apparently the old starter was dragging and loosing current although it seemed to be Turning over ok but not fast enough and would drain the batteries to much. If you can get a starter there or rebuild the one you have, that might be what's going on. Also put in a starter relay that is supposed to help get more current to the starter.
Hope this helps'

[Fatmobile]

There have been a couple cars around here that have had a hard time starting this winter.
The starter was working but apparently wasn't quite fast enough.
One engine wouldn't start at even 30F, even though the starter was turning it over.
We tried everything from new battery cables, glow plugs and several timing settings.
A rebuilt bosch starter and he just called me today to tell me it started at below 0F, without a block heater of course.