Re-Ring/Rebuild Project Under way. Pics + Progress

[Quantum TD]

Regarding the head. If you use your mechanical head, you'll have to plug that 2nd return hole. I've heard of people taping and then putting a plug in there. Then, use a mechanical head gasket that's appropriate to your deck projection for the pistons.

You may also want to put in a mechanical lifter oil pump. You'll have way more pressure than you need for the mechanical head, and it may sap your MPG using a hydro oil pump.

That cylinder looks ruff.

[the vegenator]

I'll ask the machine shop about tapping and plugging that hole. I'm sure welding it could work too, but it might be nice to leave the block unaltered.

The block didn't come with a pump, so I'll be using the pump from my original engine.

[82vdub]

For the gaskets that you need, buy a full engine gasket set, and then the head gasket (sold separately). No need to buy every gasket piece by piece. If you're going to spend the money and freshen the motor completely, I'd say do it and do it right then. If you can buck up the $ for new pistons, I'd take the block the minimum amount over that you can get by with. That way it's lifespan may be for a lot longer if necessary.

Typically, rod and main bolts aren't replaced, unless they've stretched or there's something wrong with them. You can check with the machine shop on that and maybe have them inspect them to get their opinion too.

You may be able to drive a block plug into the extra hole and plug it up, instead of taping it and screwing a plug in. There's posts on the site about plugging that hole.

Follow the Bentley manual on rebuilding the engine. That's your best bet. I'd get a hydraulic head and just use that. No need to mess with valve shims ever 60k miles going that route.

[Fatmobile]

Glad to hear you found a block for $100,
and a 12mm one at that.

If you do decide to use a hydrolic head; you get to use a metal head gasket,
they didn't make one for our mechanical blocks.

I'm 50/ 50 on changing the rod bolts.
I used ARP rod bolts on my last 2 builds
but have reused the stock bolts a couple times before with no problem.

[the vegenator]

Yeah, it's pretty convenient that the day I realized I needed a new block, I found one on craigslist. I'll probably stick with my mechanical head, since Jack doesn't have any in and I'd like to keep costs down.

The bottom end on this block was rebuilt 3000 miles before the head gasket blew and the owner gave up. Everything looks pretty fresh, and the bolts all look to be in good shape. I'll leave the big decisions to the machine shop though, and the task of plugging that hole.

82, I already have the valve cover gasket and oil pan gasket, which is why I had planned to buy the rest as needed. Hope jack can accommodate.

[82vdub]

Just check on the price of the full set before you blindly buy the pieces separately. You may find that by the time you buy a couple items, it was cheaper to get the whole kit. The valve cover gasket will be used in 60k miles, when you redo the timing belt anyways, so that won't go to waste.

[btrapr]

Great thread for a newcomer like me__________
crazy question BUT I am a newbie at these...
Someone posted Hydraulic 1.6 USE a metal head gasket? WHICH or what one do you order. I have a rebuitl hydr. short block and have ahead on the way

thanks

[the vegenator]

I gathered from the post above that metal gaskets were the primary gaskets used for hydraulic heads, but I could be wrong. You could always contact Jack - the owner of the business that's hosting this forum - and ask what material it is, and whether or not it is an option or if it comes stock.

For what it's worth, I had never opened up an engine before last week, so I am a newbie at this too. This forum combined with the Bentley and Haynes manuals have me pretty darn book smart, but practical experience is what I'm lacking. I'll keep posting pics and project status updates as this comes together. You should consider documenting your project with pics too in case anything crazy happens. That way you can get better feedback here if you're looking for help.

[Fatmobile]

oversize rings
head gasket
head bolts or studs... hmmmm...
exhaust and intake manifold gaskets
new exhaust donut ring gasket?
rod bearings
main bearings
I-shaft bearings
front and rear crank seal
fiber gasket for front and rear seal covers
water pump
thermostat
Thermostat housing and o-rings
v-belts
motor mounts
2 oil filters +oil
Injector heat shields

Missing from the list:
oil filter mount gasket,.. and the one for the block-off plate next to it.
vacuum pump o-ring
seal inside the vacuum pump gear
Probably some I missed.

Only bad thing I can think to say about a gasket/seal set is; I like the rubber valve cover gasket and oil pan gasket,
and that's not usually what's in a diesel engine rebuild gasket set.

Someone posted Hydraulic 1.6 USE a metal head gasket? WHICH or what one do you order. I have a rebuitl hydr. short block and have ahead on the way

Metal head gasket was used on the later 1.9,.. but it fits a 1.6 hydro block nicely.
I'm not sure what year/model you could go into a parts store and tell them to punch into the computer.
Jack probably has them.
I'm seeing more 1.9Ds around and he rebuilds alot of industrial VW diesels so he might have parts for the 1.9.

I didn't reaslise/forgot this is the first time you've had an engine apart,.. with intent to put it back together anyway
You're doing a good job.
Check for a crack in the mains,
where the crank rides.
I had one that was hard to see and have heard of another one, not real common, easy to miss.

[the vegenator]

Missing from the list:
oil filter mount gasket,.. and the one for the block-off plate next to it.
vacuum pump o-ring
seal inside the vacuum pump gear

Of course! I still have the gasket material left over from the last time I resealed that flange. And I think we previously established that napa stocks the vacuum pump, or else an o-ring can be re-sized and sealed with silicone. The internal seal might be harder to come by.

Metal head gasket was used on the later 1.9,.. but it fits a 1.6 hydro block nicely.
I'm not sure what year/model you could go into a parts store and tell them to punch into the computer.
Jack probably has them.
I'm seeing more 1.9Ds around and he rebuilds alot of industrial VW diesels so he might have parts for the 1.9.

If I end up finding/buying a hydraulic head I'll definitely go this route. But it's good to have the info out there as far as which engines used the metal gasket.

And thanks Fat for the encouragement. I only know one other engine tinkerer here in Bloomington (in the real world), so this forum is where I'm getting most of my info and help. The machine shop is my only other source too. I got a good lead on a semi-retired machinist who works on a lot of VWs south of town. He'll be doing a thorough inspection/measurement of block, pistons, and crank shaft. The mains on the hydraulic block look great - original machine marks, no cracks or scratches.

I'll have the block back next week. Until then I'll be meticulously stripping the accessories off the dead engine under my hood and pain-stakingly tearing apart the front of my car to get the engine out. Ugh.

[joat]

forgive me if I missed it, but don't forget a new seal between the oil cooler and oil flange on the block ... they tend to get brittle and leak .....

[the vegenator]

The Bentley's specs on cylinder bore sizes are easy to follow, compared with the spec sheet on this site (http://www.vwdieselparts.com/caution.htm). I may be reading it wrong though. For third oversize, the Bentley lists a cylinder diameter of 77.51. The spec sheet lists grades - grade 3 being 76.53. Underneath, it says "Three oversizes of 0.25mm each." 77.51 would be a fourth oversize according to this description then, right?

Just trying to understand the difference in spec terminology.

[Quantum-man]

The Bentley's specs on cylinder bore sizes are easy to follow, compared with the spec sheet on this site (http://www.vwdieselparts.com/caution.htm). I may be reading it wrong though. For third oversize, the Bentley lists a cylinder diameter of 77.51. The spec sheet lists grades - grade 3 being 76.53. Underneath, it says "Three oversizes of 0.25mm each." 77.51 would be a fourth oversize according to this description then, right?

Just trying to understand the difference in spec terminology.

I could have posted earlier, but decided to lurk... If your measurements are correct, then your original engine is 3rd oversize . The oversizes are +0.25 +0.5 +1.0. Final oversize is a double leap.

Why as a complete novice, are you writing off your first engine?
Compression was low for #2, but, from the bore measurements, it didn't seem bigger than the other bores, so I can see no reason why the cylinder pressure couldn't be brought up to the two good ones, simply by using a set of rings the same size as the ones in a 'good' bore.
New ones with more flesh would raise the spec further.

The low result could either be worn rings , or simply aligned ring gaps.
Did you notice the gap alignment as you removed #2 piston?

The marks on the piston crowns are purely cosmetic.
The valve on my engine is still touching this crown 35000miles on with no adverse effects:

EDITThis is a real ring gap! In case of confusion, the picture below shows the 3 piston rings in correct order Giving 160psi, and the car still ran fairly smoke
free... If you guessed the top ring gap to be anything less than 160thou/4mm then you'd be wrong.

$22 for new rings all round and everything is hunky dory

[the vegenator]

Why as a complete novice, are you writing off your first engine?

I wrote off this block because of the feedback I was getting from a few folks after I told them the measurements I pulled. Also, Jack's opinion held some weight: "Re ringing a block this worn is a waste of your $$"... granted, he's running a business, but I still trust him. I know I could've re-ringed and put it back together with minimal $$, but why (in my mind with all my obsessive trappings), would I want to go to all that trouble to potentially not have changed anything?

I bought this car as a Complete Novice back in 2004, from a DIY-type college kid type who claimed to have rebuilt the engine 40 over under the supervision of a "German diesel specialist." The symptoms were there from the beginning (engine had less than 10k on it). Low power, hard starting, 25mpg city, smokey. As a Complete Novice, I addressed the issue by following advice on the forum (checked timing, changed lines, filters, inspected pulleys, so much more), and I even changed out the IP and had the injectors rebuilt. All the while fixing a variety of problems that resulted from the PO being an incompetent git (who runs heated tank coolant lines on the exhaust pipe anyway!? ). Even now, as I'm tearing into the engine and taking accessories off, I'm discovering even more issues that directly relate to the PO being an ignoramus.

I plan on having this car for a while. So I may as well get the job done right. From the beginning. By pulling/rebuilding the engine, I can be confident about the work done. Also, I can get easy access to all the other small things that need to get fixed, redo my SVO setup, and give myself a learning experience - a rite of passage - that I feel every self-motivated mechanic should learn how to do.

It probably seems odd to most folks here, but that 77.61 measurement was the excuse I needed to start fresh. Get rid of the old memories. And maybe put food on Jack's table for the next month!

Quantum-man, I'm grateful for the advice/feedback and certainly not offended in any way. But I guess I'm just a stubborn newbie looking to take matters into his own hands!

[Quantum-man]

Why as a complete novice, are you writing off your first engine?

I'm glad you didn't take offence, as it wasn't my intention.

Nothing wong in spending some money where neccessary, or advisable, but, unless you are putting the car through a show, replacing parts of an old engine's mechanism, as part of routine, or because the non interfacing facets of a part look old, it may be a mistake, and a reflection of lack of self confidence; especially as the replacements are likely as not inferior, and may only last years compared with decades. [just look at the recent injector thread]

Directing your self-perceived obsessiveness to inspecting the parts for actual wear, is the way to go.
My compression results were 300psi in each cylinder when I got the car, and had the gasket blow after a few months. As they were all the same value I assumed a calibration error, as starting was never an issue.
It was my slightly over zealous head skimming using strips of carbourundum paper on plate glass shelving that lead to the unavoidable valve-piston clash, for a subsequent 35000 miles.
To date head gasket has not leaked.
My mini rebuild last August, came about after a month of harder starting [sometimes] Still minimal smoking. Compression readings were 200, 270, 200, and 160 psi.

It turns out that the rings were both worn with varying large to gigantic gaps, and 7 out of 12 of them stuck in. Strangely no piston damage due to flame passing down the side of pistons

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10318
£2 for the skim, and £15 for the complete set of rings.
Oil usage has dropped right off, and starts immediately down to -10C


I wrote off this block because of the feedback I was getting from a few folks after I told them the measurements I pulled. Also, Jack's opinion held some weight: "Re ringing a block this worn is a waste of your $$"... granted, he's running a business, but I still trust him. I know I could've re-ringed and put it back together with minimal $$, but why (in my mind with all my obsessive trappings), would I want to go to all that trouble to potentially not have changed anything?

I bought this car as a Complete Novice back in 2004, from a DIY-type college kid type who claimed to have rebuilt the engine 40 over under the supervision of a "German diesel specialist." The symptoms were there from the beginning (engine had less than 10k on it). Low power, hard starting, 25mpg city, smokey. As a Complete Novice, I addressed the issue by following advice on the forum (checked timing, changed lines, filters, inspected pulleys, so much more), and I even changed out the IP and had the injectors rebuilt. All the while fixing a variety of problems that resulted from the PO being an incompetent git (who runs heated tank coolant lines on the exhaust pipe anyway!? ). Even now, as I'm tearing into the engine and taking accessories off, I'm discovering even more issues that directly relate to the PO being an ignoramus.

I plan on having this car for a while. So I may as well get the job done right. From the beginning. By pulling/rebuilding the engine, I can be confident about the work done. Also, I can get easy access to all the other small things that need to get fixed, redo my SVO setup, and give myself a learning experience - a rite of passage - that I feel every self-motivated mechanic should learn how to do.

It probably seems odd to most folks here, but that 77.61 measurement was the excuse I needed to start fresh. Get rid of the old memories. And maybe put food on Jack's table for the next month!

Quantum-man, I'm grateful for the advice/feedback and certainly not offended in any way. But I guess I'm just a stubborn newbie looking to take matters into his own hands!