Oil In Coolant

[uzzo2]

Hey guys, looks like I may be revisiting an old problem with my 86 Golf with the 1.6L diesel. Not too long after I got the thing, it started getting oil in the coolant. I don't remember how long ago it was now because it seemed like a lot of stuff happened to it at the same time. I believe it was probably around the end of 2003 the first time it happened. I put a new head gasket on it and then I had a tranny problem. It set for several years before I had the money to tackle it again. After I got the tranny straightened out and drove it a while, I remembered you were supposed to retorque the head bolts. Well one of them wound up breaking on me, so I had to do the head gasket job all over again. Now it looks like there may be some oil seeping back into the coolant again. When I redid the head gasket I made sure I bought new bolts which is something that I didn't do the first time. I did the retorque at 1000 miles like the bentley manual requires. I was talking to a mechanic that specializes in VW that told me that he retorques them again at 30k miles. I was just wondering if anybody here has heard the same thing or had the same problem.

[Quantum TD]

Before you put the head back on, did you check for cracks in the head or block?

For that matter, did you check the warp on the head?

Did you use a new headgasket on the 2nd time around with new bolts?

Based on what you've told us so far (reused head bolts ), I'm guessing the answer will be "No" on all counts.

Pull the head, check for cracks (not just between the valves), and check the block too. It may be the case that the bolt that snapped on you, also put a crack in the block. So, I'd check that bolt hole first. Check for warp in the head. Anything over .005 will require machining. Anything over .009 will require the head to be straightened, and then line-bored and resurfaced.

Usually oil and water mix means cracked block. Not always, but it's about a 90% chance on the old 11mm head-bolt blocks (motors up to 1981). On a 1.6NA 12mm (which is what you should have in your 1986 Golf, assuming the motor is original), the likelihood is reduced to about 5%. Is the block original?

[uzzo2]

Before you put the head back on, did you check for cracks in the head or block?

For that matter, did you check the warp on the head?

Did you use a new headgasket on the 2nd time around with new bolts?

Based on what you've told us so far (reused head bolts ), I'm guessing the answer will be "No" on all counts.

Pull the head, check for cracks (not just between the valves), and check the block too. It may be the case that the bolt that snapped on you, also put a crack in the block. So, I'd check that bolt hole first. Check for warp in the head. Anything over .005 will require machining. Anything over .009 will require the head to be straightened, and then line-bored and resurfaced.

Usually oil and water mix means cracked block. Not always, but it's about a 90% chance on the old 11mm head-bolt blocks (motors up to 1981). On a 1.6NA 12mm (which is what you should have in your 1986 Golf, assuming the motor is original), the likelihood is reduced to about 5%. Is the block original?

The block is original, the guy I got the car from bought it new for his daughter in 86. About a year before I bought it, he went through the engine. He is a retired diesel mechanic from ABF truck lines. He did it like you do truck engines, an in-frame, the block stays in the vehicle. He just honed the cylinders and re-rung it, He did take the head to a machine shop though and had it checked out. We did check for cracks in the head and block, there were some cracks between the valves. I was told that wasn't a problem, the first time this happened you could see where the oil was getting by on that part of the gasket, so we did use a new gasket. I thought that maybe it was just bad head gasket. I don't remember if we put a straightedge on it before we put it back together the last time to be honest with you, so there may some warpage. But I sure have put a lot of miles on it since then, it's just very strange to me.

[uzzo2]

I've been thinking today while at work, I wonder if it might help anything to go back over the head bolts again and retorque them? What do you guys think about that? If I have to tear it apart again, I am thinking I just need to take it all the way apart and do it right. I myself used to be a truck mechanic and don't have a lot of experience with FWD vehicles until I bought this Golf. It seems like you almost need to be in a shop with a lift to do this kind of a job, I have neither. Also, from what I've seen and read here, you don't want just anybody doing the machine work on these heads and blocks. I've had a couple of guys tell me that the fellow I bought this car from should've taken the block out as well and had the bores checked. The coolant doesn't really look that nasty yet, but the surge tank looks oily around the sides and bottom to me. Maybe I need to do a compression test first and go from there, it just runs so good that it's hard to believe there's a low compression problem. It starts instantly without any hesitation. I guess I'll start working on a parts list and see if I can get in contact with Jack about parts. I haven't been able to reach him the last few times I needed something so he must be really busy. Just looking for some input on which direction I might need to go, I would greatly appreciate it.

[Vincent Waldon]

You have nothing to lose by trying it... but unfortunately the gasket only squishes once and the headbolts only stretch once... if it's breached now it's very likely to stay breached.

[uzzo2]

You have nothing to lose by trying it... but unfortunately the gasket only squishes once and the headbolts only stretch once... if it's breached now it's very likely to stay breached.

I think you're probably right Vince, I think I'll just buy a reman head from Jack if I have to pull it off. By the time I got it off and got it to a machine shop, it would probably cost more than that to fix it plus the time lost. This isn't a project car, it's what I drive every day to work, 100 miles a day. I sure don't want to be without it for too long, I just have to try and figure out what kind of shape the bottom end is in so I know if I need to tear into it as well. I personally think that most of my problem is with the head and valve seals. It uses a quart of oil per week, that's about 500 miles. I always see white smoke when I first start it up and take off. After that it's just the occasional cloud of black smoke, so I am thinking that whoever did the work on the head just didn't do it right to start with.

[Quantum-man]

You have nothing to lose by trying it... but unfortunately the gasket only squishes once and the headbolts only stretch once... if it's breached now it's very likely to stay breached.

I think you're probably right Vince, I think I'll just buy a reman head from Jack if I have to pull it off. By the time I got it off and got it to a machine shop, it would probably cost more than that to fix it plus the time lost. This isn't a project car, it's what I drive every day to work, 100 miles a day. I sure don't want to be without it for too long, I just have to try and figure out what kind of shape the bottom end is in so I know if I need to tear into it as well. I personally think that most of my problem is with the head and valve seals. It uses a quart of oil per week, that's about 500 miles. I always see white smoke when I first start it up and take off. After that it's just the occasional cloud of black smoke, so I am thinking that whoever did the work on the head just didn't do it right to start with.

If you've not reused the bolts before, then loosen each one in turn and retorque to about 95lbft.
No angular stuff.
Warm engine up first,[turn off] and take off water cap.
A simple check on the bolt, would be to remove each one as you are about to torque it and measure bolt lengths. Give yourself a limit of say 0.5mm stretch

[WAgrower]

So I think we are in the same boat, but I may be a step ahead of you... I had an issue with re-torquing my headbolts becasue they had sat for several months after a rebuild. I decided to replace them with new bolts, but not replace the gasket (i figured it was new and the bolts hadn't been torqued). I swapped them out one at a time torquing to 30lbs. once they were all swapped I did the final torqings and all seemed to be well.

Well not so good of a fix I guess becasue here I am 300 mi later looking at some bad signs.... My coolant has always been dirty (and on the top of my to-do list) but I figured it was from the van sitting for a long time after the rebuild so I wasn't too concerned with it. However today I did the test where you warm the engine up for 30sec and then open the coolant tank, and I found that there was pressure in the tank and that the coolant was foaming!!

So I'm pretty sure I've got ANOTHER blown head gasket.... moral of the story- if you take the bolts out, change your gasket.
I think it's worth a try to tighten your bolts (I'm going to try torquing mine some more to see if that eliminates the problem, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Quantum-man]

So I think we are in the same boat, but I may be a step ahead of you... I had an issue with re-torquing my headbolts becasue they had sat for several months after a rebuild. I decided to replace them with new bolts, but not replace the gasket (i figured it was new and the bolts hadn't been torqued). I swapped them out one at a time torquing to 30lbs. once they were all swapped I did the final torqings and all seemed to be well.

Well not so good of a fix I guess becasue here I am 300 mi later looking at some bad signs.... My coolant has always been dirty (and on the top of my to-do list) but I figured it was from the van sitting for a long time after the rebuild so I wasn't too concerned with it. However today I did the test where you warm the engine up for 30sec and then open the coolant tank, and I found that there was pressure in the tank and that the coolant was foaming!!

So I'm pretty sure I've got ANOTHER blown head gasket.... moral of the story- if you take the bolts out, change your gasket.
I think it's worth a try to tighten your bolts (I'm going to try torquing mine some more to see if that eliminates the problem, but I'm not holding my breath.

There are many morals, rules of thumb etc, but rarely absolute.
Use some washing up liquid in the coolant, run it for a few minutes and flush out. Then just redo the test with pure water. It may well be that the gasket has gone too far, but the foaming could be from old residues.
When I rebuilt my engine back in August, I had reused the head bolts, because I had previously only angle torqued 45 degrees, for every 90 deg requirement. IIRC, I retorqued after 300miles. A very slight leak into the coolant later developed, but disappeared after minimal retorque to yeald. It's now been nearly 5000 miles with no issues, other than a valve to piston kiss that has remained for nearly 40000 miles due to my overzealous head skim.
If I ever take the head off again, I can cure this with 3 thou off the two outside valve faces

[WAgrower]

Quantum-man those are some encouraging words!

I guess I'll do my flush sooner then planned and try torquing the bolts a bit more. I'm skeptical that it's residual scum in the system simply becasue it appeared so suddenly. I've been keeping a close eye on my coolant tank to see if there were any other air bubbles in the system and saw no sign of the foam before.

[Quantum-man]

Your pessimism, is probably justified wrt your case, however, 300 miles is not much time to actually damage the gasket from the minor leak, so a retorque, whilst warm could help...

[WAgrower]

I'll try torquing while warm, and I just picked up a compression tester on ebay for $18 so I'll check there too before any drastic moves.

[zman]

This probably goes without saying but be sure and clean out each threaded headbolt hole in the block thoroughly. The bolts nearly bottom out at full torque so any debris could effect the final torque. Also it is a good idea run the new bolts down into the block then measure the exposed length against the thickness of the head.
Or just get studs. ...Good luck.

[uzzo2]

Wow, there have been many replies since the last time I checked this thread, I didn't get any emails about new posts for some reason,hmm. Anyways, I finally got around to doing the compression test today. I've got a call and an email in to Jack but I also wanted to get some advice here. I think at the very least I am going to need a reman head from Jack, what do you guys think?

1: 440 PSI
2: 390 PSI
3: 420 PSI
4: 400 PSI


I should also note that there was oil on the bottom of the number 2 injector, I don't know if it's from faulty valve seals or oil getting by the piston rings.

[82vdub]

I don't see any major issues with those compression numbers. The 390 one is a little low, but it should still run just fine and definately not low enough to push something into the coolant.

Are you sure that the oil residue wasn't there from a previous owner's issue, or something like that? Do you have a water to oil oil cooler on the car?