Front Crank Seal Replacement

[82vdub]

I'm going to service my timing belt on ole 82 this weekend. The front crank seal on the 1.6NA is leaking pretty good now (90% sure it's the crank seal), and I'll be doing this too while I'm in there. I know the crank seal is installed in a "carrier" that gets bolted to the block. I'm wondering if I should go to the trouble of replacing that carrier to block seal, or if I should only do the crank seal. Clearly, if it looks like it's leaking I'll do both, but wanted to get some feedback on what others thought. I'll also be doing the intermediate shaft seal, if I can get the pully off. Ole 82's coming up on 375k and the seals aren't cutting it much anymore. Sorry fats, I won't be pulling the I shaft out a bit to look at the front bearing. This will be the first time that the I shaft pully and cogged crank pully will have been removed from this motor. I'm expecting 29 years and 375k miles of resistance on their removal, so tips will be accepted.

[Fatmobile]

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7112&p=42975&hilit= ... eal#p42975

[82vdub]

You don't have that washer handy to measure, do you? I probably have some impact socket or some pipe of some sort that may fit, but time will tell at this time. I'm pretty good at finding something around here to accomplish the task needed at the time.

I am really dreading doing this work for some reason. I guess I'm not too thrilled to be working on a cold garage floor that much right now this time, but it's work that needs to be done. The timing belt has probably 40k on it, but I'm tired of the leaking front seal, and I need to change the alternator belt (the belt that's behind the AC belt), so it's time to just get that far into the job at this time and do it all. I'm going to voilate a rule of mine this time and not replace the water pump like I normally do when doing a timing belt.

I was going to losen the crank bolt when the timing belt was still tensioned by using the IP locking pin. Same thing with tightening the crank pully. Get everything buttoned up and hold the timing belt in place and final tighten the crank bolt. Threadlocker will definately be used.

[Fatmobile]

I wouldn't use the new belt to hold the crank sprocket while torqueing,
it could stretch the belt.

If you use a socket to put the seal in, there is nothing to stop you from driving it too deep.

Go to the hardware store and bring a seal,
the washer I used was just slightly bigger around than the seal, I had to grind the edge so it wouldn't get pressed into the carrier along with the seal.

[82vdub]

I wouldn't use the new belt to hold the crank sprocket while torqueing,
it could stretch the belt.

I could install the old one quickly to final torque the bolt. I haven't looked in the Bentley yet to see the torque value for the bolt, but these engines develop 70-80 ft/lbs of torque that's transmitted to the timing belt. Plus, sometimes when these engine don't run or start properly, they're caughing and bucking like crazy. I would believe that the torque transitioned from a caughing and bucking engine crankshaft to a timing belt would be several times the torque value that the engine produces. Is this illogical?

If you use a socket to put the seal in, there is nothing to stop you from driving it too deep.

True. I got a couple of two different size washers today. Will custom fit them for the job. Great tip/tool by the way.

[82vdub]

For whatever reason, I'm dreading going further into the repair than I feel like going at this time. I got the belts and covers off, and find that the front main crank seal likely is not leaking. There's oil under the cover, but it's pretty dry. The intermediate shaft seal looks good too, but I'll look closer at that tomorrow. It may be weaping, but it's certainly not causing my oil puddle troubles. But, the puddles that the car keeps leaving look mostly to be coming from the valve cover of all places. Back of the head is washed clean of dirt on the timing belt side of the head from so much oil leaking out the back. Oil pan may be leaking a bit, not quite sure on this one yet though. The pan bolts around the front of the engine weren't very tight. I can redo the pan gasket when the belt is done later though.

I have the crank and intermediate shaft seals, but am reluctant to dig that far into the motor for some reason (at this time). I think I'm dreading the hell that I'm guessing is coming if I try to get the I shaft pully off, and then any residual issues and hell with removing the crank pully to do that seal. Maybe I'm making it seem like it's going to be worse than it will be, but for some reason I'm not thrilled with going further. I'll be sleeping on my decision on what to do over night. Thoughts?

[joat]

pull the oil filler cap, put the blowing end of a shop vac and duct tape it to the hole, block off any other tubes and dip stick ... turn on vac ( to pressurize the engine ) .... slip under car and look for oil around crank seal / int seal / pan seal, etc....

It may show the culprit and is safe at low the pressures.

[82vdub]

I just got done redoing the I shaft seal and crank seal. I have yet to put the I shaft seal back in. In my Fel Pro gasket set, it came with two o-rings, each with a separate part number identified on the outside of the package. The o-rings are both labeled "shaft seal" and appear identical in shape, size and thickness. One has a shiny black finish to it and the other is a dull black finish. Anyone know which to use or would it even make a difference? Ironically the I shaft seal in the package was labeled as camshaft seal on the outside of the Fel Pro box. It's probably like VW to use seals that are all the same to save costs.

[Fatmobile]

I'm not sure which o-ring to use,.. mine are always green.

[MizPahPAH]

Is one O ring for the IM shaft cover to the block and the other for the vacuum pump to the block?

IIRC the Felpro box that mine came in said the same thing about cam seal but it also listed it was for the 2.2 and 2.5 Mopars.

But its been a while

Pete

[coke]

Camshaft, Crankshaft and IM shaft oil seal are all the same seal. The intermediate shaft seal carrier o-ring should be green and is usually very thin.

[82vdub]

There was no green o-ring in the gasket set I have, so I used the more shiny one.

I believe that I need to adjust my IP bracket so the rear of the IP rides higher to correct the timing belt alignment. It rides about 1/8" off the front of the IP sprocket. If I read fatmobile's post here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9725, the bracket in question is the one that's barely visible from looking behind the IP. These are the two bolts that when you have a car with AC, you create choice words trying to get at those bolts - right?

Is there a way to just loosen them, try to elevate the drivers side of this bracket (so the rear of the IP will sit higher) without having to completely remove the IP? I would think if the bolts were loosened and you could snake a rod or block of wood in there to try to rotate that bracket a bit, this may work. Or, does it have to be unbolted or loosened from the other end of the bracket above the water pump where it bolts to the remainder of the IP bracketry?

[coke]

I corrected my alignment problem with simple pump movement without moving the bracket. There is a lot of slop in the IP mounting slots cut in the pump. You might be able to do it with that.

[82vdub]

I loosened the IP bolts and put a jack under a piece of wood and pushed up the rear of the IP to see how the belt tracked. I didn't tighten any bolts, just as a test. The belt rode about 1/16" or less off the IP pully. Anyone see any issues with this alignment if I can get it to run this way, or should there be some of the IP pully showing between the edge and belt? I would think that the VW engineers would have accounted for belt tracking in the IP bolts without having to go align a bracket below this.

[coke]

On mine, it was the front end of the pump that had to be manuvered. I believe I pushed it down, but I cannot remember. There is some movement up or down in the slots cut in the front of the IP that the 3 bolts (2 bolts one nut, or 1 bolt, 2 studs w/ nuts, w/e) that allowed me to correct the tracking. It wasn't the rear of the pump that I messed with, only the front.