Fuel line failures

Technical questions and answers concerning all models of VW diesel vehicles.

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WAgrower
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Fuel line failures

Post by WAgrower »

Ok so interesting problems that may not be related...

Lately I've been noticing fuel accumulating under my IP; on the bracket. It looks like it could be from the cold start or from the front end of the pump. It hasn't been bad and I've been trying to track it down.
Today however I think my electric pump at the tank failed; which left me stranded on the freeway for a couple hours :oops:

I swapped the fuel filter and would still only get a dribble of fuel at the IP so I"m pretty sure its the fuel pump or something with the fuel line running to the tank. I haven't been driving it much but until today it's been driving well, and my vacuum gauge for the fuel lines has been reading 0.

So do you think the problems are related or do I just have a failing fuel system?
82 Westy with an 85 1.6TD
Fatmobile
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Re: Fuel line failures

Post by Fatmobile »

So your pump won't pull fuel on it's own so you added an electric fuel pump?
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
WAgrower
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Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Fuel line failures

Post by WAgrower »

The electric one has been there all along; the PO said it was to boost the pressure from the tank; I'm not sure if it's a common thing on the van... Can't seem to find any literature on it so I'm thinking it's not.
My IP will pull fuel; the veg tank doesn't have a pump on it and it feeds fine, but it's also right in front of the engine.

I'm just wondering if maybe the electric pump has been on its way out for a while and the leaking IP is caused by the a vacuum on the fuel line; but my vacuum gauge has been reading 0 all along...

I'm wondering if the long run from the back of the van to the front is jeopardizing the vacuum gauge's accuracy. It's run with water maker hose.
82 Westy with an 85 1.6TD
Quantum TD
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Re: Fuel line failures

Post by Quantum TD »

Your pump is wasted. The reason the PO put the electric pump on it is because the vanes in the feed pump are stuck, and can't properly pull fuel from the tank on its own.

The leak is probably your cold start seal leaking: another sign of a worn pump.

To properly repair it, you will need to have the pump rebuilt and remove that stupid external, electric pump.

Rebuilding the pump yourself is an option. There are instructions on this site. New seal kits can be had on ebay (just don't buy them from Prothe).
WAgrower
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Location: Seattle

Re: Fuel line failures

Post by WAgrower »

Well yesterday I tore at the fuel lines running to and from the tank to the engine bay, got thoes replaced and did a little tidy work under the van as well.
I've removed the electric pump to see if the IP will work but after reading around here I'd have to agree with Quantum, it's probably there to nurse an aging pump. I'll be ordering a rebuild kit today and reassemble everything without the elx pump and cross my fingers it can hold a prime.

Guess I get to see the inside of yet another part of my van!

Does anyone have any tips to the rebuild. I've seen the pictorial walk-though posted here and was going to use that as my guide, but I have a turbo boost something (??) on top of my IP and not sure if that makes much of a difference in the rebuild...

thanks all!
82 Westy with an 85 1.6TD
Quantum TD
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Re: Fuel line failures

Post by Quantum TD »

The Turbo LDA (on top) should not add much work, but it will change the seal kit you'll need (I think). Here's a nice write-up about changing the seal on the LDA slide-pin:

http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=19895.0


Other than that, some quick tips:

1)You can make the special tools you'll need for the pressure regulator and the triangular bolts with a Dremel and a burin or cutting tool and some old sockets.

2) To hold parts in place during assembly that might otherwise fall out, I like Vaseline.

3) I like to really clean the hell out of the outside and insides of the case. To do so, I get a variety of small wire brushes and wheels for a Dremel, and use them in my angle grinder collet.

4) Be sure to SCRIBE anything that fits overs a splined shaft for reference.

5) For the governor shaft (the one with a lock-nut and allen in the center), I like to CUT a mark on the outside of the nut to the center shaft with a small disc cutter (like a dremel one).

6) To get out the feed/vane pump: Early cars used 2 Phillips screws, later pumps used Torx screws. If you have the Phillips screws, buy a BRAND NEW, extension screwdriver with a good tip. Hold the pump in your vice (carefully, but sturdy) so you can look down into the pump. Set the screwdriver into the screw, and give it a few heavy whacks with a heavy hammer. This will help free up the threads, and allow you to remove the screws without risk of stripping the heads. Otherwise, you'll have to drill out the screw heads, and good luck finding replacements, unless you pull them from another pump.

This is the root cause of your problems (inability to pull fuel from the tank, and lack of internal pump pressure). I'm sure you'll find 2 or more of the vanes (little tabs in the feed pump) will be stuck in place. They should move in an out freely. If you need to, remove the tabs and lightly sand (with no lower than 2000 grit) the sides so that they fit snug, but slide out easily. Or, just work the tabs in and out with some penetrating oil lubing it up.Put some Vaseline on them during the install back into the pump housing to prevent them from falling out. The Vaseline will wash away in short order.


Good luck!

Oh, lastly, be sure to REFERENCE the keyway on the input shaft with the cam-plate and plunger, or else your timing will be 180 degrees out. It's well-covered in the online "how-to", but I still managed to screw it up on the first 2 pumps I did.
WAgrower
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Re: Fuel line failures

Post by WAgrower »

Thanks man!

I read through the how-to in detail yesterday and have a pretty good feeling about doing the reseal. I don't think I'm going to tackle the LDA this time around... It's been dry as a bone so I'm fairly certian the leak is in the lower half.

Definitely doing the Vaseline trick after reading the thread yesterday; sounds like a trick I'll use all the time on other projects too!

Project will have to wait till Wed to be tackled so the van sits for another weekend :(
82 Westy with an 85 1.6TD
WAgrower
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Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:27 pm
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Re: Fuel line failures

Post by WAgrower »

Well after pulling the pump apart last night I discovered the inside was covered with a pretty good layer of varnish. you can see in the main vain pump where the diesel purge had done it's trick, but you could tell it was half full when it sat for so long. There is a distinctive line at about 50 deg CW where the fuel sat....

Well it's been a long morning with my dremel and some scotchbrite but it's looking better. Now to hope the gaskets get delivered today!!

I couldn't reference which way the cam plate sat in relation to the shaft when I was pulling it apart.... Hope that doesn't come back to bite me in the end! I did cut scribes for the other critical items however just not that one.

Thanks for the tips here's to hoping she goes back together smoothly!
82 Westy with an 85 1.6TD
Quantum TD
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Re: Fuel line failures

Post by Quantum TD »

WAgrower wrote: I couldn't reference which way the cam plate sat in relation to the shaft when I was pulling it apart.... Hope that doesn't come back to bite me in the end! !
There is a ROUND pin on the backside of the camplate. It needs to align with the keyway on the mainshaft. You can use the outer keyway on the shaft (the one for the woodruff for the belt drive sprocket), as it's in the same spot as the one for the vane pump. It's explained in this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=6694

here's the pic of the pin on the back of the camplate:
Image

If you don't reference it, you could be 180 degrees out. You'll still be able to run it, but you'll need to move the belt sprocket 180 to get it to run right. Some belt sprockets have holes for the locking pins in 2 places. Some do not. So, if you don't have a sprocket with the 2 holes, and your cam plate is 180 out, you could be fuct.
WAgrower
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Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:27 pm
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Re: Fuel line failures

Post by WAgrower »

Well I got the 2 holes in the sprocket and I've actually just scribed a mark at 180 just incase

You know I stared at that pic and my pump for what seemed like forever and couldn't see what that pin mates to! You say it should align with the keyway on the main shaft? Ok now I get it; it doesn't fit into anything! I was looking for a notch or a key way on the cross that it mated too. Man I was over-thinking that WAY too much..... Well I kept everything lined up the way veeman had it in the walk-through so here's to hoping!

What are the signs it's 180 out? will she run rough or just not start? or a combo?

All in all it was a fun project, and I wouldn't have had the guts to try it without the help from you guys and veman for the post!!
82 Westy with an 85 1.6TD
mtran
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Re: Fuel line failures

Post by mtran »

WAgrower wrote: What are the signs it's 180 out? will she run rough or just not start? or a combo?
she`ll run,even start but badly.Best
I`ll improve my English
Fatmobile
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Re: Fuel line failures

Post by Fatmobile »

WAgrower wrote: You know I stared at that pic and my pump for what seemed like forever and couldn't see what that pin mates to! You say it should align with the keyway on the main shaft? Ok now I get it; it doesn't fit into anything! I was looking for a notch or a key way on the cross that it mated too. Man I was over-thinking that WAY too much.....
The pin fits into the slot on the plunger, makes it spin and select what cylinder to feed.
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
WAgrower
Diesel Freak
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Fuel line failures

Post by WAgrower »

Yup figured that part out; I just kept thinking there was a key-way for the nubbin that was on camplate facing the rollers.

Well last night wasn't able to get it installed; too stormy and I was more concerned with getting my new NMT run under van before it got too wet again. All the old wires were run as a mass under the van tangled in parts and just really messy. So got some non-metallic conduit and ran it from the fan housing behind the radiator to the engine bay.
http://www.amazon.com/Ezduit-Flex-Plus- ... B0009XCJYS
something similar to this that you can find at most hardware stores; they have a bunch of nifty fittings for it too so you can make in enter the van with a sealed fitting.

So the van still sits and the pump is still on the table.... and more storms are coming in...
82 Westy with an 85 1.6TD
WAgrower
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Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Fuel line failures

Post by WAgrower »

ARRRGGGG!!! Braved the storms today to install my IP and after it was bolted in I put the sprocket on and found it wouldn't rotate! it would turn about 30deg or so and halfway through a pump it would hit something solid. changing the cold start would change where it hit but not much else would help. So pull it off and bring it back to the bench and have to tear it most of the way apart to find the distributor piston was snapped in half!!! WTF did I do :oops:

I'll try to post a pic soon but how does one go about finding a new distributor piston? a donor pump I'm guessing or is this something a Bosch center would sell?

good news is the cam plate was in the correct way.

Image
82 Westy with an 85 1.6TD
WAgrower
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Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Fuel line failures

Post by WAgrower »

and to make things even better it looks like the only guy on ebay who has one it proth!

hmmm... I got a good timing dial gauge and adapter from him as well as a compression tester. they are cheep but work well; I know all the warnings about this guy but if it's the piston I have to believe its a genuine bosch part and not some cheep knock off...
82 Westy with an 85 1.6TD
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