starter problem

[greg lousy]

I just did a bunch of work on my 81 caddy - new engine head etc. I went to start it up and ... nothing. The starter did not run at all. The lights go out when the key goes to starting position, so according to Bentley the starter's not getting enough juice, but I'm getting just under 12 volts at the starter (terminal 30). Also, the glow plug indicator light is eradic, either coming on for a moment or just staying on indefinitely.

Where do I go from here?

[bscutt]

Make sure the battery has a good charge. Inspect the positive and negative cables from the battery terminals down to every connection point. Make sure the ground cables connects well to both the chassis and the engine block. If you are ok with that, make sure the starter solenoid is getting power.

If all that is good have a friend crank while you measure voltage at the battery and at the starter big terminal. If you are 100% sure the battery is good and that your cables are good, you could have a starter motor problem or your engine is too tight. Hopefully you have verified that you can spin the engine by hand with clockwise rotation of the crankshaft with a 19mm socket & ratchet.

[82vdub]

Did you rotate the engine with a wrench on the crank bolt to make sure you don't have any piston to valve contact before using the key? I would check cables and make sure you have good connections with the starter cables, and the grounds are there to the engine/trans as bscutt mentioned.

[Caerbannog]

I vaguely recall that there may be a starter lockout if the seatbelts are not plugged into the doors. I bypassed mine ages ago.

You should crank it over TWO FULL TURNS manually with a wrench first, as the others have said already.

[greg lousy]

Thanks guys - the engine turns fine.

The more I measure around with a multimeter and mess with stuff, the more shot my battery looks. I think I'll replace it and then see where I'm at.

[greg lousy]

I installed the new battery, solonoid clearly clicks, lights go out - same thing.

I then cleaned the connections between the solonoid and starter motor (I had already gone over the other connections on solonoid), and cleaned the battery ground strap connections again.

Tried to start again and this time the whole electrical system was out, no overhead door-open light, no dash lights, nothing.
I messed around with one of the ground straps and then got a dim glow from some dashboard lights.

To my mind, it looks like the ground straps must not be connected properly, but I've got them pretty much shining at this point - very frustrating. I did clean the groundstrap connection points with a wire brush. Could this have backfired? - less contact with scratched surfaces?

What else could account for this? I plan on going over the battery terminal connections again, but they look fine and I've definitely got voltage coming from the positive terminal.

Lastly, what can I do to absolutely ensure that these ground connections are solid?

- appreciate the help

[82vdub]

Maybe a better list of what was done to the engine before this all happened. I just did my head gasket and only removed the positive cable from the battery, so if there was an issue with the starter not getting power, I messed with only one connection, so if that one's good, I'd then have to look elsewhere.

you've previously said the engine turns fine. Is that with a wrench and turning it by hand?

Cleaning the grounds would have only improved the connections, typically. Are the cables in good condition?

The lights go out because the load reduction relay drops out when you engage the starter, so that's functioning correctly. You sure the positive cable for the vehicle is connected to the positive terminal of the battery? Bypass 100% of the control wiring by using a remote starter switch connected directly to the starter solenoid (make sure the car is in neutral first), or by using a screwdriver and cross terminals. If the starter cranks, then you have power there and the starter/solenoid are good, and you have to start looking for a control wiring issue. Start isolating and ruling out portions of the system so you're not trying to troubleshoot an entire electrical system.

[bscutt]

Try using jumper cables to jumper from battery negative terminal to the engine block. If you have a ground cable or connection problem this will bypass it. Same goes for the positive cable; jumper from the battery positive terminal to the big bolt on the starter. If it cranks with either of these fixes you have some non-obvious problem with a cable or connection from the battery. That happens more often to the ground side in my experience since the ground goes from the battery to the transmission mount and to the chassis. If you have a bad connection to the block you won't get enough current to crank the starter.

[greg lousy]

Yes, I meant the engine turns fine by hand.

Work I did - replaced engine head ? a reman one, gasket, timing belt, rebuilt vacuum pump, redid some coolant loops (its a two tank waste oil system).
I messed around with some minor electrical accessories. I rewired a circuit that includes a solonoid switch (to change from vegetable oil to diesel) and injection line heaters. I recently disconnected this circuit entirely when these problems came up - before the whole electric system started cutting out. Other than that, the only electric related thing I did was disconnect the ground strap to the transmission mount when working.

Also, it may be relevant that the vehicle sat for a few months during this process, due to various complications, both auto and life related.

The cables look fine, I'll definitely start bypassing them with a jumper cable, see what I can see - will post results
thanks

[Fatmobile]

I've had everything go dark when I hit the key before,.. usually didn't have one of the battery cables stuck to the battery good enough.

When you hit the starter there is alot of current flow.
Resistance from a bad connection will cause the spot to get hot/warm.
Feel for heat after holding the key to starter for awhile.

Many of us bolt the negative cable to the top starter mounting bolt,.. and run something to frame ground.'
Instead of to the trany mount. Running current through different metals can cause corrosion at the junction. Metal bracket>aluminum trany, can= white corrosion.

edit: every comment was ignored, look I'm invisible
No reason to continue commenting on this one.

[joat]

Bad ignition switch ?

[greg lousy]

OK, I've figured some stuff out but I'm still in the woods.

There is a short in the glow plug wiring, causing my battery to discharge quickly.
After my brand new battery discharged, I disconnected all the wires I had reattatched during the head replacement (just the wires going to the engine temperature sensor and the temp. gauge sending unit), thinking I must have messed up. I noticed my battery was still discharging so I started feeling around and noticed the main glow plug wire was warm with the ignition in the off position. There's no obvious problems in this circuit, but the battery holds its charge when this is disconnected.

With this disconnected, I then expected the starter to at least crank, but it did not. Still the clear solonoid click and nothing else.

I've pretty much ruled out bad ground connections as I've cleaned them well and bypassing with a jumper cable seems to have no effect.

[TylerDurden]

At this point, I'd bench-test the starter.

WRT the GP circuit remaining energized: I experienced a similar issue and discovered the relay was full of water.

[Caerbannog]

One way you could test the starter motor, still in the car, is to bypass the starter solenoid. This involves jumpering between the two big studs on the starter solenoid.

A couple of ways to do it is: A. use a short piece of fat insulated wire bent in to a "U" and momentarily contact the two studs or B. use one - maybe two - cheap screwdrivers and momentarily bridge the two studs. DO NOT CONTACT THE CASE OF THE STARTER OR THE CHASSIS !! You'll see some good sparks if you do. And BTW, don't spin your unloaded motor very long and although it shouldn't engage the flywheel, make sure you have the tranny in neutral.

If the motor portion of your starter is good, then it will spin up without engaging the flywheel, and imply you have a bad solenoid. If the motor doesn't spin, you're probably looking at a new starter.

[greg lousy]

OK I'm pretty sure I've got this now

I've got a faulty connection in the solenoid. The starter motor is fine, and the solenoid engages the motor, but there is a bad connection so the voltage isn't getting to the solenoid - starter connector strap terminal - less than 1 volt here in start position.

Now I've got to figure out why the battery continuously discharges through the glow plug wire. So I solved one problem but discovered another. I'm open to any ideas, but if not, i plan on doing more tests and maybe starting a new thread including any information I can muster up. I've got a theory of how the two could be related so hopefully a new solenoid will set me straight.

In any case, between you guys, Bentley, and the old pick up, I now have a much better understanding of my starting system - and I didn't even electrocute myself. Thanks everyone.

And Caerbannog - you were right about using a thick wire, the thinner ones tend to catch on fire.