Winding starter- video page 3

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ad
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Re: Winding starter

Post by ad »

farrier wrote:Yes I tried that. It's got to be a wiring problem somewhere. Just finding it will be a bear.
You did the jumper trick with the starter installed?

So what happened?

There are only two wires to the starter.

If the engine turned fast with the jumper, then you know its your battery cables
If the engine turned slow with the jumper, then you know the starter is faulty
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farrier
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Re: Winding starter

Post by farrier »

Thanks for your replies. I won't be able to work on this till the weekend. I'll update further when I do some more investigating.
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Re: Winding starter

Post by farrier »

Well my best guess is it's got to be the flywheel. There is a little wear on most off the teeth. Maybe a 1/16'' rounded on the tip of the teeth. Some spots there is more. Looking at the bendix gear it looks like it's catching the flywheel judging by the shiny wear on the teeth, if that makes sense. But I assume that is enough wear to make it slip and not fully catch?
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Re: Winding starter

Post by farrier »

No voltage drop anywhere I can find. 12.99 volts before cranking. Voltage at starter the same. About 11.8 while cranking. The flywheel is catching I assume, but not enough. Turning slowly at first then not at all. Put grease in starter bushing. Checked all tranny to block bolts for tightness. Something with the flywheel is still my best guess.
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Re: Winding starter

Post by Quantum-man »

What happened when a starter cable used to jump it? If it worked then it can't be the fly wheel teeth...
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farrier
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Re: Winding starter

Post by farrier »

When jumper cables go directly on positive post of the starter, and starter to bell housing bolt for negative, exact same thing happens. No better, no worse.
No matter if source from rabbit's own battery or coming from a running 1 ton diesel with 2 batteries. :|

Could it be something with the motor that makes it harder to turn over?
I can turn it by hand, but it does have on spot that seams to have a lot of compression, making it tougher to turn.

So to summarize,
1. No voltage drop anywhere.
2. Can put jumper cable on any way you can imagine, multiple times, expecting different results, but always the same out come.
3. Rebuilt starter w/bushing (did this with previous starter that was 4 months old), new alt., good battery, new battery cables.
4. Bell housing tight against block. Starter tight against bell housing.
5. Motor turns very little, but does turn. Better on first try, less so the more I hit the key.
6. Flywheel has a little wear on outside corner of teeth, maybe 1/16'' rounded, some spots a little less.
7. Don't know what to do next, maybe get out a sledge hammer just to make me feel better.
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Re: Winding starter

Post by bscutt »

If you can turn the engine over with a wrench on the crank bolt it should not be too hard for a good starter motor. This is truly a mystery if you are absolutely certain that the battery is good and that you are getting 12v at the starter when cranking. It sounds like mine did when the battery was going south on me. Voltage was good but under heavy load it just dropped off too much to crank. Did you have someone put a voltmeter across the starter big terminal and the starter body whole you crank? If it's not voltage drop maybe the starter is biding on the flywheel? I think this would be driving me crazy if I tried all of the above and it still did not crank. There has to be something out of whack. Might be worth trying to borrow a known good starter motor from someone too. Not sure I have one in my parts bin but someone near you might.
Bob

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farrier
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Re: Winding starter

Post by farrier »

Bscutt,

Volts are 12.7 before cranking. I what till after glow pugs go, then crank and get 11.5 volts at the starter terminal. Grounded at the starter/bellhousing bolt.
I thought that should be enough, maybe not.
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Re: Winding starter

Post by bscutt »

Yes I would expect that to be enough to turn the starter. Still mystified by this one. I would try to turn the engine over 2 full revolutions by hand and see if it can happen without a hernia on your part. If so I wonder if you can roll or pull start it although I realize that takes a suitable environment and a helper with a tow vehicle. I fought a similar situation on my 41 Chevy after rebuild and it turned out the crank bearings were just a bit too tight to let the crank rotate. A tiny bit of shimming fixed it up. Does not sound like that's your problem here though. The turning by hand may tell you something. Sorry if I have hit on things already suggested. I'll go back and reread the whole thread anyway and see if I have any revelations. :D
Bob

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'82 Rabbit 1.6NA
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farrier
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Re: Winding starter

Post by farrier »

Yes I can rotate it around no problem. A couple spots a little tougher, but no problem really. I'm going to have get my boy to pull me to get it started, just to here it run again.
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Re: Winding starter

Post by Fatmobile »

Hold it while it's cranking, even if it's cranking slow, even if it's just clicking, hold the key to start.

Let the area providing the most resistance get hot,... then go feel the connections.
I suspect the starter solenoid.
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farrier
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Re: Winding starter

Post by farrier »

Fatmobile,

Well I went and held the key for about 30-40 seconds and then felt for heat.
Solenoid was cold. All wire and connections cold. It was a little warm on the end cap of the starter where the shaft rides.

I pulled the starter off again to recheck operation. Put it on the floor, hooked up jumper cables, and solenoid kicks out bendix gear strong.
I took apart a old junk starter to get out the bendix gear, shaft, and engaging fork to see if I could engage flywheel with that and turn by hand.
The teeth were a little worn on the old gear, but engaged and was able to turn motor easily by hand. If that makes sense.
So I think it's just not engaging the flywheel well enough. I really don't think the flywheel is the problem.
The new bushing is flush with the bell housing. Should I have it recessed some?
Could I grind or shim something to make the bendix go in further?
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Re: Winding starter

Post by 82vdub »

Typically, the starter gear will either engage with the flywheel, or it won't. So, it either engages and turns over the engine, or it doesn't and grinds against the flywheel. If it grinds, this should be a shrieking noise, at least that's what I've always heard over the decades of various automotive noises. So, I'm guessing that the starter is not turning the engine over as fast as it should, because you say that the engine is turning over. I don't think you posted a video of the issue. Any way you can do that? If you buy what's called a remote starter button, you can connect that to the starter solenoid and use that button to engage the starter and bypass all factory wiring to do testing when it's best if you are there under the hood to see what's going on. Make sure the trans is in neutral before doing this though.
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Re: Winding starter

Post by farrier »

That's a good idea. I'll try to post video tomorrow.
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Re: Winding starter

Post by Fatmobile »

I'm thinking, " new starter not so good." Bad bendix.
I got mine rebuilt at a local shop and had the same thing happen,.. rrrrr ziiinnnng.
I will always get a Bosch remanufactured from here on out, only they can get bosch parts at the right price.
no more local rebuilld for starters, they can rebuild my alternator.

Who rebuilt it or what brand did you get?
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
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