Vince the Veggie Vdub - 83 Golf

[WVOVWMK1]

Hi, just got hold of a Diesel Golf/Rabbit 83. 81000 miles from Wolfsburg condition! I'm in North Wales and am interested in doing some mods to make it run on WVO in our climate.
I have seen little information online regarding what is needed to get me started.
I have been scouring the internet for info for a couple of years now and I have a basic understanding of the process of turning chip fat into fuel.
If you are able to give me any pointers on the above mentioned topics I will be eternally grateful and if you ever find yourself in our neck of the woods, you'll get a pint of Wales best liquid refreshment.

Many thanks in advance people!

[greg lousy]

welcome. This board doesn't get as much traffic as the others here, so responses may be a little slow. I did a two tank WVO conversion on an 81 caddy and ran on waste oil on and off for about two years. Fatmobile (as the name indicates) has also run on WVO and is more experienced than I. ... a few others too... handful maybe.

I thoroughly enjoyed the project. I'd like to get back into it but don't have the time or space to collect and purify oil right now. Thats the first thing I would tell you. The conversion isn't terribly difficult, but collecting, dewatering and filtering used oil requires ongoing and messy work. most don't keep up with it.

I would recommend starting by getting a flat plate heat exchanger and a tank. I used a relatively small FPHE (16 plate, I think) and found it sufficient. Assuming you are doing a two tank conversion, Are you planning on making your own tank or buying one? FPHE, tank.. and a valves to switch from diesel to WVO,... everything else is common parts you can get locally at stores. For the conversion anyway, processing WVO is a different discussion.

you might want to check this place out http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=447609751

all the necessary information is there, though there is so much it can be overwhelming. A lot of opinions too. There are companies focused on WVO equipment, but I'm not the one to comment on any of them because I was too cheap to buy from them. More information about where your at in this process and your mechanical experience would be helpful. Great sounding car by the way. I'll be around.. cheers

[WVOVWMK1]

welcome. This board doesn't get as much traffic as the others here, so responses may be a little slow. I did a two tank WVO conversion on an 81 caddy and ran on waste oil on and off for about two years. Fatmobile (as the name indicates) has also run on WVO and is more experienced than I. ... a few others too... handful maybe.

I thoroughly enjoyed the project. I'd like to get back into it but don't have the time or space to collect and purify oil right now. Thats the first thing I would tell you. The conversion isn't terribly difficult, but collecting, dewatering and filtering used oil requires ongoing and messy work. most don't keep up with it.

I would recommend starting by getting a flat plate heat exchanger and a tank. I used a relatively small FPHE (16 plate, I think) and found it sufficient. Assuming you are doing a two tank conversion, Are you planning on making your own tank or buying one? FPHE, tank.. and a valves to switch from diesel to WVO,... everything else is common parts you can get locally at stores. For the conversion anyway, processing WVO is a different discussion.

you might want to check this place out http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=447609751

all the necessary information is there, though there is so much it can be overwhelming. A lot of opinions too. There are companies focused on WVO equipment, but I'm not the one to comment on any of them because I was too cheap to buy from them. More information about where your at in this process and your mechanical experience would be helpful. Great sounding car by the way. I'll be around.. cheers

Ah thanks for the reply!
I think single tank would be great if atall possible. I don't know how to go about doing a single tank job with this car and I am not entirely sure what parts I would need to do so. The aim is to run the car for as little as possible so that we can travel cheaply (with expansion tanks.)
I have a couple of hundred pounds to throw at it so if you or anyone else can give me help on finding the appropriate parts and advice, as mentioned, it would be most appreciated.

[Fatmobile]

You might be able to get by with a single tank setup,.. if you are driving a mercedes.
A VW will need to have the vegy heated, and a diesel tank for starting the cold engine with.

[greg lousy]

your climate would also make a single tank system harder (gets pretty cold there, right?)

I can't really help much if you go the single tank route, as I've never done it and I'm inclined to believe Fatmobile based on his experience and what I know about running veg (and it'd be a shame to mess up that car!!!). I did my system for about the amount of money your talking about though, if you go with two tanks. (even with one tank, you would probably not want to use the stock tank)

also, if your in it to save money, after the conversion, collecting and processing veg, you end up working pretty damn hard for that money you save. The small percentage of people who stick with this are the ones who come to enjoy the work. Let us know.

[WVOVWMK1]

A VW will need to have the vegy heated, and a diesel tank for starting the cold engine with.

OK well that will have to do the job I suppose. What parts would I need from scratch?

I would much rather gather up a large quantity of oil, enjoy spending a few days processing it etc and then let it settle for use and know that I have a stock of fuel that's cost man hours and a bit of elbow grease than plow hundreds of pounds into BP's pocket.
'Do more, consume less. '

Thanks for the info up to now guys

[greg lousy]

I think its a great idea to process some oil first. You'll get an idea of what your getting into.
as with anything in this arena, there's more than one way. You may want to poke around that site I posted earlier. It all depends on how much money and work you want to invest, and even with that established, there's different ways to go. The most established and effective way of dewatering is heating the oil above the boiling point of water, but safely below the smoke point of the oil so the water evaporates out. This process gets much more efficient if you have the oil going through a pump and spraying so that you increase the surface area of the oil and allow the water to escape. you could get around the parts and work involved in this by simply heating the oil in a metal container, keeping it well above 100 C for an extended period of time (until the bubbles stop, then another hour, maybe). This does of course, use more energy than if you are doing something to expand surface area. Then when the oil cools to around 120 degrees farenheight (sorry, you'll have to convert my american numbers) you filter it down to at least two microns. You have to do this while the oil is still hot because at room temp. its too viscous to filter to the point you need to go.
.... simplest possible system would be an outdoor burner and a big 7 gallon or so pot, then dump the half cooled oil through a large sock filter into a storage container. People often use electric submersible heaters .Such filters are kind of specialty products you'll probably have to order. There was some guy on line using vacuum bags, but even I have my limits. You can heat the oil on any stove of course, but the place will smell like old oil for a few days and also, you'll then be doing the whole process in more flammable environment. If you invest in a small pump (1/2 or 1 horse power) you could pump the oil through water filters, but honestly, at that point your already investing enough that you might as well just by a centrifuge, which is by far a better way of filtering. A small centrifuge and pump (they mostly use 1/3 hp pumps) runs about 350, 400 us dollars here. In the long run though, the benefit is that you don't have to keep buying filters. I think I was only getting like 30 - 40 gallons per sock filter when I was using them. Centrifuges remove a lot of water too and some people using them can skip the step of heating the oil above 100 c , depending on the initial state of the oil and their standards (you still have to heat it a bit though so that it will run smoothly through centrifuge)
Whatever you do, please be aware that heating large amounts of oil is inherently dangerous. be mindful, have a thermometer, don't leave unattended, make sure everything is level and stable, have fire extinguishers handy, etc.

There's also cold upflow filtration, which relies on the natural tendency of water and particles to settle on the bottom. Research this if you want. I put a lot of work into a cold upflow system which I was very proud of until I got the finished oil and it still had water in it. The most basic way of testing for water in oil is the Hot Pan Test, which is not easy perfect but its free and easy . (its gotta be on Youtube)

hope this helps... It may seem like a lot but this is really the least amount of info I could relay and feel somewhat responsible about it. There's no established step by step here. better to learn the principles and go your own way (funner that way too)

[Fatmobile]

To me the main trick is where you connect the return line. For every 5 cups you put in the injection pump, 4 go back to the tank.
If you connect it right back to the front of the pump it'll take 13 miles of driving to flush the oil from the pump. It's not actually flushing from the pump, it's mixing with the incoming diesel and going back in the front. Your just diluting it until it's rich enough in diesel to start the next day.

I use the engine antifreeze to heat the entire fuel line from tank to filter, then on to the injection pump.
The fuel line is inside a hose filled with antifreeze.
It gets cold enough here that if one section is frozen solid none of the fuel will flow.
I also include a section of clear fuel line coming out of the pump.

[greg lousy]

I use the engine antifreeze to heat the entire fuel line from tank to filter, then on to the injection pump.
The fuel line is inside a hose filled with antifreeze.

I had hose in hose too.... just curious, did you not have a flat plate heat exchanger?

[WVOVWMK1]

I use the engine antifreeze to heat the entire fuel line from tank to filter, then on to the injection pump.
The fuel line is inside a hose filled with antifreeze.
It gets cold enough here that if one section is frozen solid none of the fuel will flow.
I also include a section of clear fuel line coming out of the pump.

Did you take any pics of that job? I am happy to do hose in hose. I think it would be best. My current fuel lines are stainless covered in Ziebart iirc. Would I be able to clean them and thread them through a coolant line? How do you go about the switch over from Diesel for startup to Veg? This is becoming a very informative forum.

[WVOVWMK1]

I use the engine antifreeze to heat the entire fuel line from tank to filter, then on to the injection pump.
The fuel line is inside a hose filled with antifreeze.

I had hose in hose too.... just curious, did you not have a flat plate heat exchanger?

Also, I have heard that running Veg is stinky business. When inside the car, have you guys experienced the smell of burning chips?
I am toying with the idea of changing all the seals and rubbers to something bio friendly. As stated above, the lines from filter to tank are metal. Am I right in thinking that the golf will start and run on 10% Gasoline or Kerosene with 90% well processed WVO in the original tank? There is a part of me that is reluctant to put a second tank in as most of my current journeys are 15 miles or less and between startup and purging there would be very little use of second tank of WVO. As my WVO is FREEEE, If I did go down the route of 10% Gasoline with the 90% WVO I would still only be paying around 11p per litre/40 odd pence per gallon.

[Fatmobile]

I didn't have a flat plate heat exchanger.
I'll look for some pics of my HIH setup.

[greg lousy]

I didn't have a flat plate heat exchanger.

thats interesting.. did you have an in line thermometer? I'd be interested to know how hot you were getting the oil just from hose in hose.



Vince - processing the waste oil is the messy part. Once its in your car your exhaust just smells like someone's making french fries . If your not currently bothered by the smell of diesel exhaust while driving, you'll be fine.
To set up hose in hose, I just ordered a hose in hose set up from... somewhere, I forget. That was the one thing I ordered from a WVO company.. I forget which one... maybe Greasecar? something like that. I looked in to getting the fittings and fuel line myself, but it turned out that I would spend about the same getting the fittings and fuel line as I would just ordering a hose in hose kit. You probably don't want to use your existing fuel lines... for one, it would be damn hard to get the exact fittings to pull it off. More importantly, you would want to use aluminum fuel lines. Vegetable oil is chemically reactive to most metals. The molecules in the oil polymerize when in contact with most metals, and as a result, you get a build up of this plastic like gunk - that can then mess up your filters, fuel lines, and injection pump . Some guys say that they get away with steel tanks and lines because the polymerized oil bonds to the metal in an intact, harmless layer. Other guys report problems. To be safe, most guys with two tank systems have no steel or copper anywhere in contact with the oil. Aluminum is non reactive though... thats why any pre fabricated WVO tank or fuel line will be made out of aluminum. (If you do end up buying ready made hose in hose, get the coolant hose that is 5/8 inch (or the metric equivilent). Thats the size of the coolant lines you will splice into.

to run WVO, you don't have to replace any seals. They make special seals for biodiesel applications because the methanol used to make biodiesel will dry out and ruin rubber based seals, so they make the same seals out of different material. If you did run biodeisel, you would just have to replace the mainshaft seal in the Injection pump. (the biodeisel safe seal is readily available)

.... as for mixing fuel in a one tank system.... people do it, they got their own crazy recipes with a dash of acetone and whatnot, but it sounds like you got two two tank guys here to talk to... may have to check out that other site if you go that route. Personally, if I was going to run vegetable oil off of one tank, I would look into just making biodiesel, but that is a more involved process than just filtering WVO... takes more energy, lye, methanol, and different and more expensive processing equipment. on the plus side, you could use it all the time and on short trips. You may want to see if anyone around you is making biodeisel . If you could contribute oil to them in return for bio... you could pretty much start putting that stuff in your tank and driving (just replace that one seal)

Am I right in thinking that the golf will start and run on 10% Gasoline or Kerosene with 90% well processed WVO in the original tank? There is a part of me that is reluctant to put a second tank in as most of my current journeys are 15 miles or less and between startup and purging there would be very little use of second

right now, in summer time, it would probably start and run. In the winter, It'd get a lot more dicey and you would probably have to greatly increase the gas ration. and long term... like I said, I haven't tried this, but I would worry about stress and damage to the injection pump, injectors, and even possible internal engine damage. Also, with two tanks, when I had problems with the veggie system, I flicked a switched and had diesel power to get me home. One tank your all in. Like I said though.. theres probably more info on that other site about one tank systems... maybe even a one tank vw guy....

[Fatmobile]

At first I used a sensor for the coolant gauge to see see how hot the fuel was.
I tapped into the input banjo then put it there.
Then when I put the vacuum line there I got rid of it.