Sudden death; no restart.

[tawney]

Traveling 55mph, my caddy just died all of a sudden; no coughing, no spluttering; fine one second completely off the next. Towed it home, couldn't get the pump to move any fuel at all; wouldn't pull it from a bottle, even holding the clear fuel line vertical while cranking, the fuel in the line won't move toward the pump. The engine will at least try to run if I pour a little fuel in the intake. My first thought was the stop solenoid, but I do hear it click when the switch is turned on, and the vane pump is supposed to at least move fuel through the pump and out the return line even if none is flowing out the high pressure lines. I did try to take the solenoid out with a crowfoot, but it wouldn't budge. I loosened the lines at the injectors, and confirmed that there wasn't even a sign of wetness while cranking. So my guess is that something happened inside the pump to keep the vane pump from doing its job, but before I take it off I wanted to hear some other ideas.

Thanks,
Steve

[82vdub]

First I'd suspect the fuel shutoff solenoid. Even though it clicks, remove it and pull the plunger and spring and reinstall. I've had one go bad on the way home from work, pulled the guts, drove home and while in the process of figuring out what's up with it, then it literally started smoking. So, from all external signals, it was fine, but later went up in smoke. If you get no fuel while the guts are out, then bottle feed the IP and see if you get fuel/start that way. If not, somethings likely up inside the IP.

[Fatmobile]

I suppose the "OUT" bolt screen could be plugged so check that too.
Probably wouldn't have stopped the car but it would explain why it won't pull fuel from a bottle.

[tawney]

Thanks, guys; good ideas, and I followed up on both, but I'm afraid it's not going to be so easy for me. I did get it to move some fuel through the out bolt, but with nothing coming out of the delivery lines, I finally put a dial indicator in it and rotated the engine several times: no movement on the dial at all; not exactly what I wanted to see. I've got other pumps, and I'll get it swapped out and report back later with what I find, but it may be a few weeks.

Thanks again,
Steve

[Fatmobile]

You didn't break your timing belt did you?

[82vdub]

You didn't break your timing belt did you?

That was my thought on the previous post. I would expect if the timing belt broke, that the engine wouldn't have free wheeled to a stop with it in a gear.

[air-cooled or diesel]

it can do that -freewheel and lost timing belt, check timing belt!

[tawney]

Oh, no; timing belt is fine, has less than 15K on it. Wouldn't there have been all kinds of noisy piston valve contact at the time of breakage and then afterwards with all of the cranking I did trying to get it to pump fuel? Anyway, the belt is still there in fine shape.

But I'm glad to know that I'm not alone in thinking that this situation is almost impossible. I've looked at a disassembled pump I have, and I still can't find a likely weak spot in the transfer of shaft rotation to distributor plunger movement; each part in that line is pretty unlikely to break, seems to me. My best guess at this point is that the 2 return springs broke and/or fell out of position. Plunger shaft breakage would be my next guess, but I just won't know until I take it out and open it up.

Thanks for thinking about it with me.

Steve

[TylerDurden]

No movement at the dial indicator is deffo grounds for an invasive procedure on the operating table.

[82vdub]

I do remember someone on this forum posting they had a similar situation, and found out that something inside the IP broke. Don't recollect specifics though.

[tawney]

It may be a few weeks, but I'll let you know, and post a picture or two.

Lucky for me I was only a quarter mile from home when it happened, but I'm still bummed to be without my Caddy, and no time to fix it.

[tawney]

Took the IP out yesterday and took the head off of it; the distributor plunger was broken right at the entry into the head. The control collar had also seized on the plunger and had ripped off the pin that connects the governor to the control collar. The plunger was so tight in the head that I couldn't drive it out with a 1/4" drift pin and hammer. Seems odd to me, because other than the pieces from the broken plunger, it seemed pretty clean in there. Time to install seals in one of my other old pumps, and try again.

Thanks, guys.

Steve

[TylerDurden]

I'm trying to fathom how the plunger could jam...

I don't think debris could do it.

Simple metal fatigue might cause the break, but maybe not the jam.

I would check to see if the OUT orifice got plugged. Without sufficient fuel flow through the pump to the return, it could overheat: it would recirculate fuel in the body of the pump, allowing only fuel to enter to replace the consumption by the injectors.

I rekon an overheating pump could jam.

[Fatmobile]

Makes some sense,.. because the piston would swell faster than the bore;
more surface to mass

[tawney]

I did check the outbolt; might be a little slow, but I could blow air through it at more or less the same rate as other outbolts I have. I seldom use the little truck, and this particular trip was less than 5 miles round trip, so I doubt if heat was the issue. Looking at it more carefully I would have to say there was at least a small film of rust on some of the parts; maybe that was part of the problem. Also, I can't really say if the plunger broke first and then caused the control collar to jam, or if the control collar jammed first and caused the plunger to crack, but I suspect it was the control collar that jammed first. Just seems more likely that it jammed enough to rotate and rip the pin off of the governor mechanism, and then that force may have cracked the plunger.

I've run a couple hundred gallons of used vegetable oil in the cabby, and some of it was pretty nasty stuff in spite of being filtered. I suspect the rust I see came from the moisture and acidity of that old, over-used vegetable oil.

Thanks for the ideas.

Steve