Hello,
first time R+R timing belt today and I discovered that the engine was 180 out.
(Cam was 180 to the crankshaft TDC mark) (Didn't know it would run like that)
So before I go further:
Any reassurance that if I turn the Cam / Crank to match at TDC will this thing ever start again?
Welcome to the forum. You can re-phase the camshaft so that it's at TDC where it's supposed to be. Just be sure that anytime you do anything with the timing belt that you rotate the engine by a wrench on the crank for at least two revolutions to make sure nothing hits before using the key to turn it over.
I would just take everything to TDC and lock the IP as you're supposed to and essentially start from fresh.
Everybody else lists their cars here - but not me.
Thanks!
Yes that helps! Now the last thing...
Isn't this an interference engine?
So can I turn the crankshaft to match the cam without valve/piston contact?
if you have crank at tdc the cam will be either on cyl4 tdc, or cyl 1 tdc. if on cyl 1 tdc put pump lock in and put cam lock in. if crank is at tdc, belt on, cam lobes for cyl #1 should be at #1 tdc lobes up and #4 should be on overlap both in down positions. cam lock will fit. if cyl#1 cam lobes are in down position, and cyl #4 lobes are 'up' then rotate crank 1 full revolution, check tdc mark on crank, check cam tdc, slot will be even with top of head surface. fit cam lock in. (the surface is the surface valve cover gasket sits on/seals). if cam lock fits in/ or if you dont have a cam lock, eye ball slot that its even with head surface. check crank is still at tdc, check injection pump small hole will line up with a hole in base bracket, insert pump lock or deep socket that is right size. this will be tdc. while rotating motor rotate with a wrench or socket at crank only. prefer to rotate crank forward (that is right), not backwards in most cases. while getting final timing settings always rotate crank forward to tdc, if crank goes forward of tdc rotate crank back some and come back forward to tdc.
if cyl #1 is at tdc cam lobes for cyl1 will be in the 'up' position, and cyl #4 cam lobes will be in a/the 'down' position. slot will then line up with head surface, if cyl #4 is at tdc crank mark will be at tdc but cam will be 180 degrees off and cyl 4 cam lobes will be in 'up' position and cyl1 cam lobes will be in 'down' position. slot will be under head surface, then rotate crank to tdc 1 more time and check cam/pump timing.
Audi4000 wrote:Thanks!
Yes that helps! Now the last thing...
Isn't this an interference engine?
So can I turn the crankshaft to match the cam without valve/piston contact?
DO NOT rotate crank with belt removed, these are high inference engines. theres not alot of space or room for error.
is belt on?
did you find tdc for crank, cam, and pump?
if belt in in and your sure its timed reasonably well then rotate crank forward to tdc, check pump and cam, pump should line up, cam slot will be even with head surface, if cam slot is under head surface, rotate crank forward 1 full time, at crank tdc this should be #1 tdc, cam slot should be even w/head, inj pump lock will fit. your ok, check tension of belt. cam lock is good here and injection pump lock too.with cam lock feeler guages are good too.
Ok so tomorrows task is:
1. rotate the crankshaft to TDC (with belt on)
2. take off the timing belt and then slowly rotate the IP and cam to tdc (rotate to right)
My question is can this 180 out situation be solved like this or do I need to take the head off?
you need more help before you go and remove belt. have you timed these engines before?
crank rotates 2 times and cam rotates 1 time. with belt on rotate crank to tdc check cam see if its at tdc(slot at end,by trans, will be even with head) if not rotate crank 1 full time more and check again if both crank and cam are at #1 tdc check pump(small hole) will line up with hole in back of pump. this is tdc.
DO NOT romove belt then rotate cam with out Knowing how to do it, sounds like you need a shop manual (bentley).
if belt is removed 1 common way of getting cam timing is to remove cam. this is done specially, so dont just go and loosen the nuts or you can lose head.
if you have tdc at crank and you think cam is 180 off check slot at far end of cam by trans. slot should be even with top head surface. if not it should be under head surface. rotate crank 1 full time and check cam slot now it should be even with head. then check pump timing.
It's pretty hard to put the cam on 180 out,.. what would you use to lock it?
The slot would be in the wrong place, below the surface.
That's what was meant by 2 turns per crank for every one turn of the pump.
Sooo I think the injection pump is out 180, it happens.
Mark the belt/cam so it sits back on the same tooth when you are done setting the injection pump to TDC on cylinder 1.
Use white paint to mark the notch on the injection pump sprocket. Most of the time you can't even see it from the front of the pump because the notch is usually on the back side.
Turn it twice, the dot near the crank pully bolts should be at 7:30 so you can tell when you are getting close to TDC from the other end of the engine.
After 2 turns you'll want to check the cam/crank timing.
The 10mm wrench in the spare tire well makes a great cam locker,...
but never use it to hold the cam while breaking the cam bolt loose,.. if you need to adjust cam timing.
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
Fatmobile brings up a good point, about the possibility that the injector pump (IP) is out of time by 180 degrees. Are you 100% certain that the cam is 180 degrees out? Do you have a Bentley repair manual (if you're going to service these engines, you should have one of these)? The key answer to your questions is that no, the head does not need to come off. You can rotate the crank 90 degrees from TDC position, and this positions all 4 of the pistons about half way down the block, and you can then rotate the camshaft if you need to (clearly without the belt being on). If you play around with it long enough, you'll figure it out.
Don't skip the wrench on the crank rotation requirement mentioned at the beginning. Many have damaged things, because the 1.6VW diesel is in fact an interference engine (BTW, you didn't mention what you're working on). You'll also find out if you forgot to remove the IP locking pin or any other tools with this method too.
You can also skip the timing by dial method and just use your ear to listen to the engine and adjust timing as necessary.
Everybody else lists their cars here - but not me.
It's all very simple and all becoming very complicated
The cam is 'out by 180' deg every other complete crank rotation. Have you done my fuel globule check?
Simply lock cam at TDC, lock crank with gearbox.
Slacken Belt-Tensioner. Then slipping belt off pump sprocket, rotate pump 180 degrees. Reassemble...
"I'm not here to help... I'm here to Pro-Volke"
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That is why if you listen, you will learn:
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Audi4000 wrote:Would anyone like to say a prayer before I begin....nurse scalpel....
You will be just fine if you don't skip the wrench on the crank step first before using the key. If you messed it up bad, you'll feel pistons meshing with valves. If you slightly mess it up (and the pistons/valves don't hit when you turn it by hand), you may hear them kissing each other when you fire the engine up, and if you only hear diesel knock, it's done ok. You may have to advance or retard the IP timing a bit to get it to run decently once you get it fired, but by not skipping the wrench trick, you generally can't do a lot of engine damage, if it runs.
Everybody else lists their cars here - but not me.
)