The Plastic Bottle Hone, 4 years on...

[Quantum-man]

Prompted by my last post, my engine's 'Plastic Bottle Hone' is coming up to 4 years this August, and had been trouble free until last month, when I declared that the engine will be 30yrs old in Nov.

A fault developed after a 30 mile fast run, whereby the car would not restart, after getting at all warm ie, >1/2 mile, not even within a second of stopping. No booster packs, jump starts etc would work, but leave it for a little more than an hour and it would restart after a few turns.

After some experimentation,including finding a burnt off glow plug, and conceding that my compression readings of 180 to 250, may be telling the truth, I dropped the sump, removed the head, and pulled the pistons.

All pistons in good health other than the earlier valve craters. However, the ring's [GAPS] on 2 of the pistons had completely aligned, nearly aligned on a 3rd and less than optimum on the last...

As 4 years ago I had bought 3 sets of rings, I decided to renew them. Wear was varied, but basically from about 4 to 6 thou. has come off the rings over that 4 year period.
Whilst only being about 40000 miles, it has been 95% short jpurneys around town with many restarts.

At the time of the ring job, a lesser man may have been induced to discard the engine due to the wear at the tops of the bore, and the ring gaps of up to 160 thou, at first pointing to a rebore and oversized pistons being required.
Far too expensive and cheaper to get another engine. However, other than the rings and bore, all other bearings seemed as original, and within spec, so the bearings I bought never got used, and the experiment with the low cost rebuild began...

So 4 years on , and the bearings still within spec. No play detected with the intermediate bearings either. No pump wear, and still the same old tensioner. This is probably helped by the fact I never over-tighten the timing belt.
I did have to grind out the increased ridge at the top of the bore, to get the pistons out which I believe is the source of my engine knocking.

Mere deglazing this time.

On reassembly, the car wouldn't start. Trouble turned out to be the experimental Leyland DAF nozzles with their angled pilot jet. Currently breaking in the rings with varied driving, but I assume they quickly bedded in enough to improve on their installed pressures of 230psi across cylinder[remember previously 180 to 250]
Of course these pressures may be artificially low due to my made up compression adaptor made from an injector bottom.

Idling has smoothed better than it has been for the last 2 years. I will optimize the timing when I have solved a diesel leak-off leak. I might make a sound track to compare the improvements over previous years.

[Fatmobile]

We can't find our limits until we exceed them.
Thanks for helping us find our limits,.. and not just the limits of these cylinders and rings.

[the man 53]

I could see doing this in a post apocalyptic world, but from what I just read you re ringed a block that was warn out when parts were available to bring it back to spec? Then 4 years and 40,000miles later it is still whipped upon and you do it again to get your compression up to 230, that is close to 1/2 spec of a warn engine. The same $ could have been spent once and if you did it right it would still have double what you have now for compression. It isn't like you didn't know that it wouldn't work. It will work, but the question is for how long. People have been doing junk mechanics for many years, so it isn't like your treading new waters.
Call me crazy but until the mad max thunderdome scenario happens and there are still machining facilities and parts to be had I don't see wasting all the head bolts, head gaskets, rings, and most importantly time to do this twice.

....and it is almost like you are proud of this???

[Prairieview]

The real damage of this whole shoddy-work glorification, is directed and settles on the "new guys" which have attention spans so short that they can not even read the code on their blocks.

The back-woodsy short-cut mentality appeals to those who can't even master the most rudimentary of skills.....yet, for whatever reason, have a latent desire to run these old engines and cars. It legitimizes a whole mindset that a total lack of true mechanical skill practice and proper-tool ownership is kosher. It isn't. And, it is not intelligent at any level no matter how much hot air is behind it.

In my country, I have long miles to drive and I need to "make it" to my journey without incident. I have over 1.5 million miles driven in these clunkers (since early '79) and have always strived to develop and practice intelligent, competent mechanical skills and it has paid off in spades with NO on-road breakdowns in all those clackity miles.

Imagine making the mistake of buying an automobile from someone who "specializes" in these sophomoric shortcuts.

Good luck.

[Quantum-man]

I could see doing this in a post apocalyptic world, but from what I just read you re ringed a block that was warn out when parts were available to bring it back to spec? Then 4 years and 40,000miles later it is still whipped upon and you do it again to get your compression up to 230, that is close to 1/2 spec of a warn engine. The same $ could have been spent once and if you did it right it would still have double what you have now for compression. It isn't like you didn't know that it wouldn't work. It will work, but the question is for how long. People have been doing junk mechanics for many years, so it isn't like your treading new waters.
Call me crazy but until the mad max thunderdome scenario happens and there are still machining facilities and parts to be had I don't see wasting all the head bolts, head gaskets, rings, and most importantly time to do this twice.

....and it is almost like you are proud of this???

My friend you have a nerve posting in my thread.
Folks, here is the person who has single handedly banned me from the GTD forum. Why? Well simply because I told the truth.
The truth being that the other person I was referring to blatently advertised his pretty goods; namely coloured silicone waterpipes, complete with a direct link smack in the middle of someones engine thread.
The moderators, or in truth the only operating moderator, did nothing. Maybe he has funny coloured pipes himself?
I pointed out that this was wrong. Not my job but then the mod wasn't doing his job either. Not a first offense either

Oh and I referred to the moderators as Omni-Mod, again harmless but truthful for that I get banned and called an "a hole" on the blocking page. so despite being on the forum 2 years longer than 'The man' and contributing far more in innovation.
The Man, since you've been a Mod more people have been banned, or drifted away than at any time in it's history, and their not just useless people threatening violence, but important contributors... It's starting to look as functional as Iraq... Or the FIAT forum. I can't believe that Red Rotors likes what is happening to his forum.

Back to the thread...
I did say that 230 was low but, accounted for somewhat by my erroneous adaptor. Junk mechanics? There speaks a man who designed an inlet manifold with the appearance and aerodynamics of a set of English cricket stumps, and who broke the tops off some of his pistons, and who drove a car for 100 miles before it broke down, after spending many many wasted hours building it and as he says sunk many $000's into it, and a few months ago was so sick that he wanted rid of it.

Compare and contrast with the fact that I'd spent only $22 on a re ring, to give me that 40000 miles, and 4 years 'borrowed time'. Funny how the thread title to the man's thread is "Hoping for more than 40000 miles"

My reuse of headbolts complete with a Log of their growth shows how people have been duped over the years, including yourself who I believe sells bolts. Just goes to show that the difference between a 10.9 high tensile bolt and a 10.9 stretch bolt is as I suspected, and proved by actual use, nothing at all

If the compression truly was that low, would the engine start almost instantaneously? I'll go outside right now and make a soundtrack

[82vdub]

If you read any autobiography on some of the great thinkers and leaders over the history of time, you will find that most of them failed at what they did, until they learned from those failures and moved on. How do you teach your children new things? One way they learn is through failure. Without failure, you learn much less in life.

I also think it's best to do a project once, and to do it right, but not everyone has the time and money to do this. Life happens, and that's just the way it is. For some, it's hard to pull the motor and get it to a machine shop, get the block, crank and head redone, while you need your car to get you to work and back. So, one weighs which option is best for them, and not every option is acceptable to everyone else. However, they came to their conclusion based on the factors that they used. Who are we to question why someone goes with option A where we would have gone with option B or C? Unless you buy something new, you will always be subject to the previous owner doing something that you may agree or disagree with. That's just the way it is.

Nobody can walk in another persons shoes, and I don't believe that we should chastize someone for the choices that they make in their life - especially when it does not effect any other member on this website. What we should do is suggest how each of us would have solved the issue if it were them or that we would or wouldn't use anothers method - but without the trivial comments or tone - and let the future reader read the data that is available to them and make the best decision for their situation that they can. The internet is impersonal, but it's personal to the person where comments are directed at. Let all work to keep the comments respectable TO ALL!

[Quantum-man]

The real damage of this whole shoddy-work glorification, is directed and settles on the "new guys" which have attention spans so short that they can not even read the code on their blocks.

The back-woodsy short-cut mentality appeals to those who can't even master the most rudimentary of skills.....yet, for whatever reason, have a latent desire to run these old engines and cars. It legitimizes a whole mindset that a total lack of true mechanical skill practice and proper-tool ownership is kosher. It isn't. And, it is not intelligent at any level no matter how much hot air is behind it.

In my country, I have long miles to drive and I need to "make it" to my journey without incident. I have over 1.5 million miles driven in these clunkers (since early '79) and have always strived to develop and practice intelligent, competent mechanical skills and it has paid off in spades with NO on-road breakdowns in all those clackity miles.

Imagine making the mistake of buying an automobile from someone who "specializes" in these sophomoric shortcuts.

Good luck.

What on earth are you on about? No breakdowns? Perhaps you are being towed everywhere?
Have you developed these mechanical skills you strive for? How would you know, seeing as you have never broken down in 1.5million miles. I wouldn't like to be in the middle of nowhere with you, if we broke down... You might get in the way as I repaired it. Lol

[bscutt]

Mark if we had decided your experimentation and corresponding experiences you share with us were crap or misleading I'm sure many of us would have told you so. This is a forum to share information. Hagar was once berated for sharing some of his experiences because someone felt that he was directing people to do what he did. He was not directing, only sharing his experiences. I for one love reading all of the things people try. If it fails I'd prefer it happens to you and not to me but it doesn't make it any less interesting to read. We all have the opportunity to learn from each other, whether those lessons are good or bad. In my opinion please feel free to post anything you have to say and hopefully the naysayers will keep their opinions to themselves or at least try to be constructive and polite. Some of the best inventions and technical accomplishments were made without being perfect and not sticking to "accepted norms". Let's move on.

[surfcam]

I think your point on reusing stretch bolts may be possible. I tryed to find a yield curve on them but came up empty. I have seen a yield curve on construction stretch bolts. I think they would be quite similar. With ordinary bolts the yield curve is more like a dog's tooth with the back side being a little shaper down. With stretch bolts it's intirely different. They will come up to maxium strength the same then go on a very slow decline before dropping off the cliff. I think that's the point of using them. If they are over tightened you don't loose much torque. With ordinary bolts you just about lost all the strength.

[Quantum-man]

I think your point on reusing stretch bolts may be possible. I tried to find a yield curve on them but came up empty. I have seen a yield curve on construction stretch bolts. I think they would be quite similar. With ordinary bolts the yield curve is more like a dog's tooth with the back side being a little sharper down. With stretch bolts it's intirely different. They will come up to maximum strength the same then go on a very slow decline before dropping off the cliff. I think that's the point of using them. If they are over tightened you don't loose much torque. With ordinary bolts you just about lost all the strength.

"Thanks for the balanced non-Limey-phobic viewpoint, chaps"

I'm not sure if the small plastic range that you refer to is confined to a 12.9 truly high tensile bolt, or if it includes the 10.9 strength bolts also.
Whilst [by my standards], I haven't done extensive searching about bolts, and I've relied on my own personal results on my daily driver, there was an old reference I had found to the effect that stretching a bolt within it's elastic range could actually increase it's strength. That make have been the trigger for the last 7 years or so of testing.
[I suppose I could torque one of my old bolts to destruction in the name of science!]
It is clearly dependent upon it's material though.

Since putting to one side, those 'special' bolts of mine, I have moved on to another set bought at my local discount store.
I have reused them twice now due to gasket issues.
Not a reflection of the bolts, but an introduced mismatch, created by replacing an AML head with a genuine German head. The latter not able to seal the larger sump vent with a 1.5 gasket, whilst the former head must have been cast to work for both blocks, because I used 1.5 gaskets on the 1.6 for years, due to it's better construction [another topic I must raise]!



I seem to recall writing in some earlier post, that the stretch bolts initially go to 115lbft, or thereabouts, but it subsequently drops to 105 or less.
Thus for those who are trying to squeeze every last drop of clamping force out of the bolt to hold the head still with large power outputs, single use may still be best.

Because of the give in later non asbestos gaskets, the later post run angle torquing might be better being a controlled search for maximum torque.

I only torque up to 95lbft. I do it in about 5 stages, ie 10, 25 50 75, & 95. This number may be unneccessary , but I've rationalized that by doing so, I may minimize sideways spread of the gasket.
I retorque when warm, and after 100 miles or so.
As I appear not to be damaging the bolts, I am also free to retorque whenever I feel like it!

All retorques are the 'old way of releasing each bolt in turn before torquing. This reveals those sticky ones that snatch.
Here are some figures of bolt lengths from this latest batch of gasket changes...
Bolt# 26/5/14 ===14/6/14
1) 127.3mm 127.3mm
2) 127.3mm 127.3mm
3) 127.2mm 127.15mm
4) 127.0mm 127.1mm
5) 127.0mm 127.1mm
6) 127.1mm 127.2mm
7) 127.2mm 127.05mm
127.1mm 127.15mm
9) 127.3mm 127.2mm
10) 127.0mm 127.1mm
Here is a video of my car starting up from cold, a couple of days ago; 10 seconds of glow plug.
Not perfectly timed yet, but for an old engine, that had bores out of spec, if nothing else. May need to rewind to buffer-up

http://s814.photobucket.com/user/markon ... 1.mp4.html

Funny really that this old engine may outlive the car as the car has been under the threat of write off from 3rd parties' insurance companies, 3 times since engine install...

[Fatmobile]

I do appreciate you sharing your research with us.
Procedure and results.
I've learned alot from you and concider you a valuable contributor to this community.
I understand there will always be some people who think it should be done their way.
They will need to learn to make their comments without personal attacks. So they attacked, you defended and that's over now.

This ia a nice, peacefull, educational forum. We help people get their cars running and keep them running.
I tend to get a little harsh with people who start personnal attacks on here so I'll just leave it with what 82vdub said for now.

[caduceus]

Quantum-man, please continue giving us the benefit of your ideas and experiences! I love figuring out how to "beat the system", as I call it, and seeing how others have figured out ways to do that also.

By "beating the system" I mean figuring out how to repair, rebuild, and re-use things in ways not commonly done, especially nowadays when so much stuff is made to be thrown out rather than repaired. And of course figuring out entirely new ways of accomplishing a task that save time, energy and money.

By the title of this thread, it looks as though there might have been another thread four years ago explaining how you honed cylinders on this engine with a plastic bottle, so I'll have to look that up!

So what did you use to grind off the ridge at the top of the cylinders, rather than using a ridge reamer?

[caduceus]

I have done a search of the Plastic Bottle Hone, and have not been able to find the thread or sticky where this method is explained.
How about a link, please?

[Quantum-man]

Hi,
Despite it's name, the Plastic Bottle Hone is more deglaze, with minimal cross hatching, than the grinding away of the bore that a true hone does. At the time, I wasn't willing to ream out the bores which would also necessitate oversizing pistons etc. The bores were not oval, despite significant wear at the top ring region. The original rings had worn down to give 160 thou gaps!
Research into honing in old books revealed that the trouble with a 'deep' rough hone is that it causes the bore to wear prematurely, at the same time as helping the seating of the rings. Deglazing gives enough of a window to set the rings I have found.

I had used a dremmel type tool to remove the top ridge, by raising it above the finish point of the new rings. At the time it was merely a groove. This month's engine dismantling, revealed that I had an actual ridge there from the later hammering the rings gave to the bore after a few years, making it impossible to tap the pistons out. A ball shaped abrasive hone, was used this time to taper groove and remove the ridge formed on #1 & #2 cylinders. Pistons then pushed out by hand.

At no time touch the bulk of the cylinder wall that corresponds with the part of the piston above the top ring. This helps maintain reasonable compression pressure, and allowed original non oversized pistons to be reused. Oil consumption reduced enough to have original oil-fill require service change, contrasting with previously using several pints a year.
There should be a post here about 2.5 to 3 years ago describing procedure. Naturally I cannot link to the other forum, but I can't anyway because the Omni-Mod banned me. Hopefully he hasn't erased all the valuable help I gave over 8 years, but who knows

An update to my recent hot starting issue, I have now cured it:
It turned out to be the stop solenoid, sticking partly open when hot starting.
When cold it would free itself.
Because it partially opened when hot, diesel still primed the fuel lines, creating the illusion that it wasn't a fuel issue, but it refused all attempts to start.
Now it's almost instant starting. I'll do another sound track. Engine no longer shaking. Compressions probably significantly higher than I measured, with my home made adaptor.

[Quantum-man]

Today car passed it's annual test.
Smoke Emissions for this engine was 1.58%
Clapped out? Hell no!
Now it will live to be 30 years old in November