'85 NA Golf dial gauge timing. Hold my hand, friends.

[Josh]

failed pic attempt number 2.

[Josh]

https://www.facebook.com/joshtrost/post ... nref=story The top 2 photos are from today; the 3 in the comments are from a few days ago. Is the head installed incorrectly, given the top two photos? If so, am I going to need to remove the head to get the timing right, because the camshaft groove is upside down?

Not the least bit impressed with the '85 if this is a stock flywheel, and has multiple 0 marks on it. What other explanation can there be?

[TylerDurden]

You ain't crazy, at least not on this issue.

The crank turns 2x for every 1x of the camshaft.

You want TDC with the #1 lobes up, aka the end slot above the upper surface of the head.

Have a cold one on us...

[Josh]

Ok, so I just need to put the belt back on, turn the crankshaft around once, and I'll be back in business!?

How crazy that I've never had cause to notice this before in all my belt swaps and timing adjustments over the years!

Thank you, Tyler. Perhaps a German cold one, to target particular overactive brain cells!

[Josh]

Yesterday, over the course of 8 hours, I got the pump timed perfectly by the book, to 0.038" on the gauge, which is right in the middle of the spec for the '85 Golf. It had been about 80 degrees all day in the sun, and the car barely started on the 2nd cycling of glow plugs. The engine would remain running only via constant foot-on-the-accelerator fueling, and ran worse with the cold start cable pulled.

This morning at 7, with ambient temps in the mid 50's, it wouldn't start.

Should I loosen the pump mounting bolts and fuel pipes joins, and rotate the pump away from the engine a bit, and see if that helps?

I'm plugging in the block heater now, and will verify that the glow plugs are each working properly(they're reportedly new, as the car's owner had a shop work on them very recently).

Thanks for the thoughts, all!
-Josh

[TylerDurden]

Any smoke?
Clear lines in/out of IP to check for air? Both are vital to ensure airtight lines and IP.

As per the hillbilly method, a mark on the IP and the bracket to gauge the amount of rotation is advised. A single degree of adjustment may indicate if timing is the issue.

I'd also verify the IP fuel pulse by loosening the #1 hardline nut at the injector and gently bringing the engine from 180 BTDC up to TDC by hand (key on), using a ratchet... fuel should emit from the union as the engine nears TDC. This should rule out the IP being assembled 180 out of time.

[Josh]

I ran the engine at high idle for a few minutes last night to juice up the battery and purge any air from the lines. I installed a marine bulb-style hand pump on in the fuel input to the pump, and it remains too rigid to squeeze at present, so hopefully that's not an issue. I need to acquire clear fuel line and get in the habit of installing it pre and post pump, tho! No time to do so; this car is heading 500 miles to KY as soon as I get it to run again here in the next 6-8 hours or less.

It was taken on an 800 mile round-trip highway run just prior to my beginning to wrench on it, so hopefully it'll be able to do similarly.

I'll be sure to mark the pump and bracket as suggested, Tyler; thanks! Also, thanks for the suggestion about the pump potentially being mis-assembled at some point, and looking for that cue via the fuel line and hand-rotation with the key on! If it were 180 out, would/could the car have run decently for so many miles?

And am I correct that I'm going to be rotating the pump away from the engine, given the more poorly it ran when I pulled the cold start lever?

[Josh]

I loosened the pump mounts, pulled the pump away from the engine, and tightened them. The net travel was perhaps a mm of southward movement on the forward-most corner bolt. The engine started immediately! I shut it down to let the RTV on the valve cover gasket cure as much of the 24 hour proscribed for red permatex high temp. Hopefully this will give usable highway service immediately. If not, I'll pull over, and another mm southward.

Is there need to re-gauge the timing belt tension? I imagine not, as we're just rotating, not relocating. The VW210 I snagged a decade and a half ago serves me well.

[TylerDurden]

No need to check for 180-out if it is now running smoothly.

Yep, as you have seen, the poorer running with the cold-start lever pulled indicates too far advanced.

No need to re-tension belt, but the hardlines need to be loosened at the IP and retightened to relieve the flex from rotating the IP... If not done, the lines will crack.

[82vdub]

Your original post never fully explained how you got to potentially having the camshaft out 180 degrees. Somehow someway the crank or cam was rotated (likely the crank) when you did your timing, and you may have gotten things off.

[Fatmobile]

Glad to hear it's starting right up.
Sounds like you are learning to hillbilly tune the timing. Much of it is listening for marbles.
Mark the position, set the timing, test it. Move if needed.
The cold start/timing advance lever really does help with this.

[Josh]

I've hillbilly fine-tuned Quantums before with great success; I thought I had again with this Golf as my highway mileage back from KY was over 57mpg(though perhaps the speedometer cable needs lubing or replacing as it reads about 10 mph low at highway speeds).

But now as the cold has re-descended heading into fall, starting below 60 degrees without plugging in the block heater has become impossible. So despite the apparently exceptional highway efficiency, I again return to the timing. The glow plugs appear to be functioning as designed with the relay working and power being drawn(following the troubleshooting methodology on Vince Waldon's site), but ignition simply not taking place.

I'm going to mark the cam timing on the belt, maybe even gently zip tie it to the pulley. Then loosen the belt tensioner such that I can move the injection pump pulley one tooth's worth clockwise. Then I'll retension the belt and see if cold starting is eased.

[TylerDurden]

The tension on both the cam pully and crank pulley are vital... as in dead motor if either slip. I use all manner of clips and clamps to ensure only the IP pulley changes relative to the belt.

Failure to start in cool weather is often due to low compression. Timing adjustment can only get you so far, if you don't have adequate compression.

[Josh]

Thanks, Tyler!

Can lousy compression still pull down insanely high smileage, though? I've always assumed that it cannot.

So I used a carpentry pencil to mark the teeth and pulley locations on the camshaft and the injection pump. I loosened the timing belt tensioner, took it mostly off, and eased the belt off the injection pump and camshaft. Then I rotated the injection pump pulley one tooth clockwise, reinstalled the belt with the camshaft pulley on the same tooth as it was before, tensioned the belt to the proper 12-13 reading, torqued to 33 ft lbs, and rotated the engine by hand twice to be sure of no interference. It wouldn't start.

I loosened the pump mounts, and tried all manner of adjustments throughout the range of motion. I loosened the fuel lines and retightened them. Fuel would weep at the line ends, so I no fuel supply was not the issue. Still no starting.

I've assumed the '85s have hydraulic heads, and that consequently the hand turning process doesn't create high compression in the way my mechanical engine rotating experiences have. I formed this assumption solely on rotating this engine. It's a total breeze with a breaker bar on the crank pulley bolt, unlike my quantums and westy. I've never tried to understand the differences between mechanical and hydraulic heads.

What do we think, is the compression toast?

Or should I buy another valve cover gasket, and redo the entire timing procedure from scratch, aiming for the same measurement with the dial gauge as before? I don't have a compression testing setup yet.

Or should I plug it in for a few hours and see if it kicks off after being warmed up, placing the pump as closely as I can eyeball it to the centerpoint mark like you'd do if you were changing the pump?

I'd love to be able to drive the vehicle with some certainty by tomorrow evening around 4pm CST.

[TylerDurden]

My 81 caddy and 86TD Jetta both got exceptional smilage despite bad compression... Right up until the day they wouldn't start.

Best shot for a start is the block heater or push-start, but I'm not a big fan of push starts.

The compression is how air in the cylinders get hot enough to ignite the fuel (~210°C) . Adding heat to a low compression engine can only help.