Oh, my.
Trying to sort through the smoke problem and found Diesel on my battery...cleaned it, idled a bit, found it spattered there again. Cleaned it, idled it, saw droplets landing, traced them to the engine (surprise).
Observed puddle of Diesel beneath the motor, next.
Opened license plate while idling and looked through injector sprocket. There's a clear fan of Diesel running down from the shaft; revving the engine made the fan visibly thicker. Staring at it, I could almost see it flowing. And it made a pretty good puddle on the floor.
So - that's a bum seal, I'd guess.
Can that seal be replaced, or is it wiser to just replace the injector pump?
And - would this problem relate, in any way, to the smoke problem? As far as that goes, I had the van in my garage, and started it cold. It took about 20 seconds to completely fill my two-car garage with smoke and drive me outside. It comes out the tailpipe so thick you can't see through the plume. It's fairly white, and made my eyes burn something awful.
I'm a bit unsure of the right approach here. I don't have a lot of confidence in this motor's longevity. I mean, it starts and runs about like it should, but smoke 1/4 as bad as this, in my gas-motor experience, meant you had very serious motor problems. I don't want to put a $400 injector pump and a Saturday onto a motor that's dying anyway.
I haven't checked the injectors, yet. I was headed that direction when I found the leak.
Sigh. What's the best course of action?
Leaking Injector Pump
Moderator: Fatmobile
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Fatmobile
- Global Moderator
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- Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:28 pm
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injection pump seal
That's about a $10 seal.
It'sa pain to change and you'll need a new timing belt too.
That's the way I'd go.
Could have alot to do with your smokeyness.
It'sa pain to change and you'll need a new timing belt too.
That's the way I'd go.
Could have alot to do with your smokeyness.
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username
Well, you've answered your smoking problem. If your injector pump is pissing out diesel like you say, then it's shot. No amount of turning down the "smoke screw" is going to be effective, and really the whole pump needs to be rebuilt at this ugly final stage, not just one or two external seals. I thought that smoke screw thing was kind of a "hail mary" suggestion, but kept my yap shut until now.
If it were my money, I would not waste it on rebuilding ANYTHING on a 1.6 NA. I would (and did!) look around for a 1.9 TD, an "AAZ" engine, delivered in Canadian VW cars until 1997. You live close enough to the "other" Vancouver that this should not be a big problem. These AAZ engines are the relatively old-fashioned indirect-injection and mechanical injection pump turbodiesels, not the electronic-controlled TDi engines found in US market vehicles (from 1996 + ??). The AAZ engines are relatively simple to install (especially since you have all the 50 degree engine mounts, oil pan, etc. from your original engine), and will make a HUGE improvement in power over your existing engine. Get on the Yahoo TDi conversion e-group list and ask some questions. Helpful people there on this kind of project.
You have to decide whether this van is worth the effort at this stage. A rebuilt pump is going to run about a grand, with the re & re. And really, who the hell would spend that kind of $ on an old n.a. injection pump, sitting on a thrashed engine at the end of its service life. The AAZ will be $$, but if you love the van, have $$$$ for it, and are determined to ramp up your mechanical education (and especially wiring ability), you may consider the whole hog of a TDi conversion.
Hard choices for you to make now, VanVan. But I say, time to junk that 1.6 NA engine and start from scratch.
If it were my money, I would not waste it on rebuilding ANYTHING on a 1.6 NA. I would (and did!) look around for a 1.9 TD, an "AAZ" engine, delivered in Canadian VW cars until 1997. You live close enough to the "other" Vancouver that this should not be a big problem. These AAZ engines are the relatively old-fashioned indirect-injection and mechanical injection pump turbodiesels, not the electronic-controlled TDi engines found in US market vehicles (from 1996 + ??). The AAZ engines are relatively simple to install (especially since you have all the 50 degree engine mounts, oil pan, etc. from your original engine), and will make a HUGE improvement in power over your existing engine. Get on the Yahoo TDi conversion e-group list and ask some questions. Helpful people there on this kind of project.
You have to decide whether this van is worth the effort at this stage. A rebuilt pump is going to run about a grand, with the re & re. And really, who the hell would spend that kind of $ on an old n.a. injection pump, sitting on a thrashed engine at the end of its service life. The AAZ will be $$, but if you love the van, have $$$$ for it, and are determined to ramp up your mechanical education (and especially wiring ability), you may consider the whole hog of a TDi conversion.
Hard choices for you to make now, VanVan. But I say, time to junk that 1.6 NA engine and start from scratch.
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VancouverVan
Thanks, guys. You've quite confirmed my sad first impression - a cheap but challenging repair, versus an expensive and challenging repair on an engine probably not worth the trouble.
If I go the TD route, or Tiico, or Kennedy Subaru, I'll have a powerful exensive motor in a Bus needing paint, an entire front end, new windshield, tent, propane system. It feels like a question of balance, and of committment. Right now, I could replace the seal, or even the whole pump, and sell it honestly and in good conscience and get my cash back out. Once I've put the new motor in, I think I'd never get my cash back out....
Food for thought.
I don't suppose Justice Brothers sells miracle sealants? No?
Last question: how does the leak lead to smoking? Is the leak just indicative of an overall pump failure - meaning it's not providing enough pressure at the injectors to atomize the fuel? If so, the seal repair wouldn't fix the smoke problem, would it? But if a pump solved the leak problem and the smoke problem...it'd be a decent, but not perfect, Bus.
Again, thanks for the tips.
If I go the TD route, or Tiico, or Kennedy Subaru, I'll have a powerful exensive motor in a Bus needing paint, an entire front end, new windshield, tent, propane system. It feels like a question of balance, and of committment. Right now, I could replace the seal, or even the whole pump, and sell it honestly and in good conscience and get my cash back out. Once I've put the new motor in, I think I'd never get my cash back out....
Food for thought.
I don't suppose Justice Brothers sells miracle sealants? No?
Last question: how does the leak lead to smoking? Is the leak just indicative of an overall pump failure - meaning it's not providing enough pressure at the injectors to atomize the fuel? If so, the seal repair wouldn't fix the smoke problem, would it? But if a pump solved the leak problem and the smoke problem...it'd be a decent, but not perfect, Bus.
Again, thanks for the tips.
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Vancouver Van
A fine idea, particularly as I may opt to sell the Van. A used pump, if it worked, would effect the repair and allow an honest sale of a good-running vehicle.
So which part of Battle Ground are you in? I wouldn't mind a look at your van, sometime. I still have only driven this one toy Diesel of mine, and would love to see how much a good one smokes, and how it accelerates. BG used to be my stomping grounds - worked for years out on Grace Avenue, lunching there at Al & Ernies.
Question: is this thing safe to drive a bit yet? It's messily flinging Diesel, but am I at risk of fire (the spray goes over the alternator and onto the battery), or is that seal going to simply collapse and leave me stranded?
So which part of Battle Ground are you in? I wouldn't mind a look at your van, sometime. I still have only driven this one toy Diesel of mine, and would love to see how much a good one smokes, and how it accelerates. BG used to be my stomping grounds - worked for years out on Grace Avenue, lunching there at Al & Ernies.
Question: is this thing safe to drive a bit yet? It's messily flinging Diesel, but am I at risk of fire (the spray goes over the alternator and onto the battery), or is that seal going to simply collapse and leave me stranded?
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hoyt
- Diesel Freak
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 4:08 pm
- Location: Battle Ground, WA USA
- Contact:
I live just about 2mi north of Al & Ernies.
My vanagon does not smoke at all. Not at start up or under load.
Diesel Vanagons are SLOOOOWWWW! My top speed is about
62mph and it takes awhile to get there. If you are driving where
your max speed is under 50mph, then the vanagon does okay.
I would not drive any car that was leaking fuel.
My vanagon does not smoke at all. Not at start up or under load.
Diesel Vanagons are SLOOOOWWWW! My top speed is about
62mph and it takes awhile to get there. If you are driving where
your max speed is under 50mph, then the vanagon does okay.
I would not drive any car that was leaking fuel.
--John
'82 Diesel Vanagon
'82 Diesel Vanagon
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username
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Vancouver Van
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Vancouver Van
Update -
installed pump and injectors, and smoke is hugely reduced. It's still puffs too much on starting when cold, but it starts much easier, and the smoking is quite reduced.
Running, when warm, there's still some smoke, but it's barely visible, and not constant.
On starting cold, it smokes least if I run two cycles on the glow plugs, then start it with the cold-start knob out fully, and without touch the footfeed. If I gas it, it smokes quite a bit worse. If I don't, it starts right up, puffing an embarrassing cloud. If I move out quick, it stops within a block; if I sit and idle to warm it up, it lasts much longer - and it barely idles when cold.
No Diesel leaks - smoke greatly reduced - I'd say a successful repair.
I don't know if adjusting anything can reduce the startup smoke - I'd appreciate any tips on that. It perhaps is the health of the motor?
**
Other headache: months ago, the engine ate waterpump belts. I put them on, using the Zeus-forsaken shim system to get the right tension (about a 1/2" deflection) on the third attempt. Within one hundred miles, the belt would break.
I replaced two belts - good German belts from my local VW/Mercedes/Audi shop - and the third belt I just put on loose. It has at least an inch of deflection, probably more. It visible flops when idling.
But it's lasted about 2000 miles now. It used to squeal a bit on start up; now it squeals on startup, downshifting, and starting from an idling stop.
Personally, I found the breaking belts an unfathomable mystery.
I find the shim system of tightening the belt a refutation of all good things ever said about 'German engineering.'
So - has anyone heard of a way to install a tensioner on that thing? I saw here months ago photographs from a 1.9 setup, that was cannibalized from some other car - seems like I recall they replaced the crank, alt, and waterpump belt with a wider belt setup from a whole 'nother motor.
Did VW put this shim system on all the 1.6's? In Rabbits, pickups, Vanagons....?
Did nobody every devise and sell a simple way to add a tensioner?
It might not solve the breaking problem, but sure would ease fine-tuning and replacement!
installed pump and injectors, and smoke is hugely reduced. It's still puffs too much on starting when cold, but it starts much easier, and the smoking is quite reduced.
Running, when warm, there's still some smoke, but it's barely visible, and not constant.
On starting cold, it smokes least if I run two cycles on the glow plugs, then start it with the cold-start knob out fully, and without touch the footfeed. If I gas it, it smokes quite a bit worse. If I don't, it starts right up, puffing an embarrassing cloud. If I move out quick, it stops within a block; if I sit and idle to warm it up, it lasts much longer - and it barely idles when cold.
No Diesel leaks - smoke greatly reduced - I'd say a successful repair.
I don't know if adjusting anything can reduce the startup smoke - I'd appreciate any tips on that. It perhaps is the health of the motor?
**
Other headache: months ago, the engine ate waterpump belts. I put them on, using the Zeus-forsaken shim system to get the right tension (about a 1/2" deflection) on the third attempt. Within one hundred miles, the belt would break.
I replaced two belts - good German belts from my local VW/Mercedes/Audi shop - and the third belt I just put on loose. It has at least an inch of deflection, probably more. It visible flops when idling.
But it's lasted about 2000 miles now. It used to squeal a bit on start up; now it squeals on startup, downshifting, and starting from an idling stop.
Personally, I found the breaking belts an unfathomable mystery.
I find the shim system of tightening the belt a refutation of all good things ever said about 'German engineering.'
So - has anyone heard of a way to install a tensioner on that thing? I saw here months ago photographs from a 1.9 setup, that was cannibalized from some other car - seems like I recall they replaced the crank, alt, and waterpump belt with a wider belt setup from a whole 'nother motor.
Did VW put this shim system on all the 1.6's? In Rabbits, pickups, Vanagons....?
Did nobody every devise and sell a simple way to add a tensioner?
It might not solve the breaking problem, but sure would ease fine-tuning and replacement!
The power steering pump is the tensioner on my car. It worked way better than the frustrating alternator belt system but I removed it after I blew up the steering pump. The alternator belt also turns the waterpump through double pulleys on my car. I don't have the redundancy of two belts anymore so I'll have to stop fast if I brake my belt.
Cheers, Steve
Cheers, Steve
1992 4-door Golf 1.6l
Currently 418K and climbing
Currently 418K and climbing
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Vancouver Van
Well, they're all new and the visible wiring is all good - I haven't gone through a test procedure as yet. Assuming the light on the dash is honest, they cycle about as expected...
I'll have to find a procedure and run through it - is it as simple as a voltmeter on the back of them, one by one, to ensure they're getting voltage?
I'll have to find a procedure and run through it - is it as simple as a voltmeter on the back of them, one by one, to ensure they're getting voltage?
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hoyt
- Diesel Freak
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 4:08 pm
- Location: Battle Ground, WA USA
- Contact:
The dash light mean almost nothing, it just tells you that the timerVancouver Van wrote:Well, they're all new and the visible wiring is all good - I haven't gone through a test procedure as yet. Assuming the light on the dash is honest, they cycle about as expected...
I'll have to find a procedure and run through it - is it as simple as a voltmeter on the back of them, one by one, to ensure they're getting voltage?
in the relay is still working. It does not tell you if the glow plugs
are getting power or if the glow plugs ever turn off!
I would start by checking to make sure your glow plugs are getting power.
Then to check each glow plug to see if it is okay. If you search around
on the forum you should find lots of info about checking out the
glow plug system.
--John
'82 Diesel Vanagon
'82 Diesel Vanagon
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Vancouver Van
Had a couple hours to play -
to make a long story short, I used my voltmeter to confirm 12 volts at the battery, 12 volts on each side of the big fuse next to the relay, and 12 volts at terminal 30 in the relay.
Then I used the meter and some extra test leads to put the meter on the dash where I could watch it while playing with the key, but with connections at the motor. I have 10 volts at the first glow plug, and I have 10 at the last glow plug. I cycled through about six cycles, and the voltage returns to zero about two seconds after the LED goes out. I believe this confirms the relay is working, so far as cycling goes.
I removed the first glowplug and used my jumper cables on it. It turned red real quick and nice.
Now I've got to get some paid work done - but it seems to me the 10 volts delivered to the glow plugs may be inadequate. That's a 16% loss of power - I don't know how to convert voltage to radiant heat, but based on just the lost voltage, I'm losing nearly a glow plug's worth of warmth.
to make a long story short, I used my voltmeter to confirm 12 volts at the battery, 12 volts on each side of the big fuse next to the relay, and 12 volts at terminal 30 in the relay.
Then I used the meter and some extra test leads to put the meter on the dash where I could watch it while playing with the key, but with connections at the motor. I have 10 volts at the first glow plug, and I have 10 at the last glow plug. I cycled through about six cycles, and the voltage returns to zero about two seconds after the LED goes out. I believe this confirms the relay is working, so far as cycling goes.
I removed the first glowplug and used my jumper cables on it. It turned red real quick and nice.
Now I've got to get some paid work done - but it seems to me the 10 volts delivered to the glow plugs may be inadequate. That's a 16% loss of power - I don't know how to convert voltage to radiant heat, but based on just the lost voltage, I'm losing nearly a glow plug's worth of warmth.