internal injection pump pressure

Technical questions and answers concerning all models of VW diesel vehicles.

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Quantum-man
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Re: internal injection pump pressure

Post by Quantum-man »

There is a wide range of injectors' pressures, as well as some of these engines being direct injection, and some being IDI's
Which engine is it? I might be able to work out which nozzles are involved, as I have a better FIAT nozzle list than pump list!
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mtran
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Re: internal injection pump pressure

Post by mtran »

Thanks,
My Ducato IDI,mot.num. 8144.67,nozzle 0432297034 or 193 ,125 bar,0.94 mm .
Fiat Croma IDI,same motor,nozzle and pressure,but IP is 0 460 494 173and 1.17 mm.
That is difference of 0.23 mm.Data for Croma is from AutoData 2004 sofware,one of Esi dvd give me truble so I don`t have picture of pump to see diference.
I`ll improve my English
Quantum-man
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Re: internal injection pump pressure

Post by Quantum-man »


Still not quite isolated your engine. the 8144.81 may be close or even the 8140.67.
The following is a list I grabbed from some nozzle manufacturer a while ago.
Amongst the idi engines it is interesting to note that the Ducato for one option uses a wider spray pattern of 12 degrees, whilst the same nozzle as used in VW's, the 193; is used in a wide range of pressures, presumably for n/a and TD, yet VW like to specify different nozzles, although we DIY mechanics are aware of their universal application....
The difference in timing I assume could be due to differing pump sizes, or top speed governing specs.
Not sure if the list is any use for you...

0 432 231 655 4800029 KBAL127S34 DLLA145S1330 0 433 272 004 230.0bar FIAT 8035.05.377 40KW
0 432 991 002 61671693 KBAL57X1 DLL160X8 0 433 920 008 FIAT Unic V85S
0 432 297 040 KBE58S4/ 4 DN0SD19 0 434 250 063 135.0bar FIAT 138 AE.. 40-41KW
0 432 297 042 4465545 KBE58S4/ 4 DN0SD1930 0 434 250 092 135.0bar FIAT Ritmo Diesel
0 432 297 046 KBE58S8 DN0SD193 0 434 250 063 165.0bar FIAT 8144.81..
0 432 297 057 98466049 KBE58S 8 DN0SD301 0 434 250 162 120.0bar FIAT 8140.67 62KW
0 432 191 829 4796257 KBEL108P25 DLLA160P85 0 433 171 082 230.0bar FIAT Ducato 14 TD
0 432 191 733 98418944 KBEL108P5 1 DLLA150P299 0 433 171 216 240.0bar FIAT 8140.27
0 432 191 747 98409841 KBEL108P5 1 DLLA150P235 0 433 171 193 240.0bar FIAT
0 432 193 666 500328286 KBEL110P176 DSLA134P772 0 433 175 179 181.0bar FIAT 8140.43
0 432 191 837 KBEL81P22 DLLA136P69 0 433 171 069 230.0bar FIAT 8060.24.661 90KW
0 432 191 748 4823317 KBEL82P58 DLLA140P233 0 433 171 191 260.0bar FIAT 8040.45 SPR 103KW
0 432 291 504 500317389 KBEL83S3 5 DLLA132S1335 0 433 272 987 260.0bar FIAT 8045.06R.. 48KW
0 432 291 509 99469340 KBEL83S3 5 DLLA132S1320 0 433 272 997 260.0bar FIAT 8045.05C.231
0 432 291 654 4792442 KBEL83S35 DLLA124S1001 0 433 271 774 230.0bar FIAT 100.90 74KW
0 432 291 655 4800029 KBEL83S35 DLLA136S1000 0 433 271 775 230.0bar FIAT 8035.05.377 40KW
0 432 291 678 4791688 KBEL83S35 DLLA124S963 0 433 271 796 230.0bar FIAT 8065.05.200
0 432 291 583 4849981 KBEL83S63 DLLA134S1113 0 433 271 719 260.0bar FIAT 8040.25 SPR 132KW
0 432 281 731 770880 KBL108S178/ 4 DLLA160S641 0 433 271 315 200.0bar FIAT 8200.12.000
0 432 281 732 770882 KBL108S178/ 4 DLLA140S563 0 433 271 266 200.0bar FIAT 8210.02
0 432 281 718 771064 KBL70S177/4 DLLA141S662 0 433 271 325 230.0bar FIAT 100F13 96KW
0 432 281 719 771115 KBL82S166/4 DLLA150S709 0 433 271 354 200.0bar FIAT OM-8360.03
0 432 281 740 8828484 KBL82S166/4 DLLA150S527 0 433 271 245 200.0bar FIAT CP 3
0 432 281 743 8828485 KBL82S166/4 DLLA145S507 0 433 271 231 200.0bar FIAT CO 3 C Var 1
0 432 217 122 5984702 KCA17S53 DN0SD1930 0 434 250 092 135.0bar FIAT Regata Diesel
0 432 217 295 46437385 KCA27S98 DN0SD321 0 434 250 225 150.0bar FIAT
0 432 217 129 4466609 KCA30S41 DN12SD1750 0 434 250 119 125.0bar FIAT Ducato 10 1.9 D
0 432 217 139 7540997 KCA30S4 1 DN12SD1750 0 434 250 119 150.0bar FIAT Regata TDiesel
0 432 217 148 1706104 KCA30S4 1 DN0SD259 0 434 250 117 135.0bar FIAT Fiorino 1.7 Diesel
0 432 217 172 7581677 KCA30S4 1 DN12SD283 0 434 250 145 150.0bar FIAT Ducato 14 1.9 TD
0 432 217 195 76343760 KCA30S4 1 DN12SD290 0 434 250 153 125.0bar FIAT 160A7.000
0 432 217 202 76450720 KCA30S4 1 DN12SD296 0 434 250 158 125.0bar FIAT Uno 1.3 D
0 432 217 273 7778147 KCA30S4 1 DN0SD301 0 434 250 162 150.0bar FIAT Marea 2.4 TD
0 432 217 297 46461617 KCA30S41 DN0SD321 0 434 250 225 150.0bar FIAT 182 A 8.000
0 432 217 260 98462466 KCA30S84 DN0SD307 0 434 250 168 145.0bar FIAT 8144.97Y
0 432 217 261 98462465 KCA30S85 DN0SD307 0 434 250 168 145.0bar FIAT Croma 2.5 TDI
0 432 133 869 7718862 KDEL65P26 DSLA150P362 0 433 175 059 200.0bar FIAT 154 D 1.000
0 432 131 864 7604122 KDEL65P8 DLLA160P171 0 433 171 153 250.0bar FIAT 154B 66KW
0 432 281 724 771033 KBL108S178/ 4 DLLA160S699 0 433 271 343 200.0bar FIAT-ALLIS 8205.03.531
0 432 281 742 8828486 KBL82S166/4 DLLA145S525 0 433 271 243 175.0barFIAT-ALLIS CO 3/60 Var 12
"I'm not here to help... I'm here to Pro-Volke"

Be like meeee...Drive a Quantum TD
...The best work-horse after the cart...

Quantae grow on you...but Rabbits are like roses...
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mtran
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Re: internal injection pump pressure

Post by mtran »

Thx Mark,
I use all 193,293( some 300 and 500) and see no much difference.
Main thing is difference in timing between this two IP on same engine of 0.23 mm is FOR me lot or not?
I`ll improve my English
Quantum-man
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Re: internal injection pump pressure

Post by Quantum-man »

mtran wrote:Thx Mark,
I use all 193,293( some 300 and 500) and see no much difference.
Main thing is difference in timing between this two IP on same engine of 0.23 mm is FOR me lot or not?
The timing difference is probably due to van versus car and possible difference in internal piston size in pump. and rnge of dynamic advance. Any more Bosch numbers on the pumps?
"I'm not here to help... I'm here to Pro-Volke"

Be like meeee...Drive a Quantum TD
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Quantae grow on you...but Rabbits are like roses...
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Only one Darwin, Einstein, Poe and Verne.
That is why if you listen, you will learn:
From the one and only Quantum-man,
Who sees the worms from outside of the can.

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mtran
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Re: internal injection pump pressure

Post by mtran »

No Mark,as I write my Ducato is 0 460 494 198 ,Croma 2.5D same motor 8144.67 and IP 0 460 494 173, Croma 2.5TD 8144.97Y motor- same IP 0 460 494 173,Ardjenta 2.5TD motor 8144.81 and IP 0 460 404 031 and 0 460 404 041,by Autodata 2004 for all data.
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Quantum-man
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Re: internal injection pump pressure

Post by Quantum-man »

mtran wrote:No Mark,as I write my Ducato is 0 460 494 198 ,Croma 2.5D same motor 8144.67 and IP 0 460 494 173, Croma 2.5TD 8144.97Y motor- same IP 0 460 494 173,Ardjenta 2.5TD motor 8144.81 and IP 0 460 404 031 and 0 460 404 041,by Autodata 2004 for all data.
I'm getting closer with the info. I was chaseing an error for a while, as a few posts ago you wrote:
mtran wrote:Hello to puzzle man,again great info,
Because of another fuel than D,do I get better swich/adjust for different fue and I have sometimes different viscosity on as also.Right now I am on 40 psi on idle.Just for record I am NOT looking in hp etc,just for better combustion.
ps. I know you use/know Fiat,I have Ducato with 0 460 4640189 stock 0.94 mm I did 0.99mm,but Croma same engine only IP is 0 460 494 173 and stock 1.17 mm is it possible with only minor change betwen pumps-aka can I go more than 1.1 that I plan to do,or even more?
'464' of course can't exist as it means VE pump with either a 6mm injection piston, or a mind boggling 16mm on a 4 cylinder.

This is what I have found:
0460 494 189 is VE 4/9F2100R22-7 Used in Alpha Romeo, Iveco, and accoding to you the Ducato it would appear. Engine type 8144.67.22, so this means the engine is 4 cylinder, is that correct?
Pump on the Ducato is rated at 4200 rpm, has a pump piston of 9mm.
Although I cannot find the other pump,the code 494 tells me it is also a 9mm piston.
The Croma pump could well be rated at higher rpm's. After all, acceleration characteristics of a van and a car is somewhat different as well as the expected maximum speed, therefore timing may well be different, more advance required to allow for the injection delay at the higher speed.

For different fuel, I guess you mean some kind of veggy. Variations on blends of veggy alter the viscosity of the fuel and tend to cause advancement of the pump slightly. Better lubricity of veg oil tends to counteract the slightly less energy content, and so similar fuel economies occur.


:idea: Having said all this, the only way to 'tune' an engine, whether it be for speed, power or economy, as opposed to 'timing', (timing merely being some arbitary setting suited to an average engine at new); is to run the engine and adjust the pump, adjusting for idle smoothness, and smoothness under acceleration, by listening, and feeling the engine through the gear stick... :idea:
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Be like meeee...Drive a Quantum TD
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That is why if you listen, you will learn:
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mtran
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Re: internal injection pump pressure

Post by mtran »

Thx Mark.
I`ll improve my English
Quantum-man
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Re: internal injection pump pressure

Post by Quantum-man »

mtran wrote:Thx Mark.
Just like to say that FIAT engines are good stuff, but the only FIAT forum I've found is pretty limited in 'dieselheads' :mrgreen:
"I'm not here to help... I'm here to Pro-Volke"

Be like meeee...Drive a Quantum TD
...The best work-horse after the cart...

Quantae grow on you...but Rabbits are like roses...
... girls like em ;o)

Only one Darwin, Einstein, Poe and Verne.
That is why if you listen, you will learn:
From the one and only Quantum-man,
Who sees the worms from outside of the can.

7 Quantae in 20 years; 4 dead and 3 TD's still alive [2 wagons & 1 fastback] oh and a GTD :o)
mtran
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Re: internal injection pump pressure

Post by mtran »

That is VERY true,but VE pump are same and injection setup so this forum is great HELP to me.
I`ll improve my English
Mariusb
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Re: internal injection pump pressure

Post by Mariusb »

Quote:
I was reducing the pressure on one of my pumps, and in punching the pin back upwards I'm pretty sure I confirmed a suspicion I had that the 'fixed' upper pin will not move back upwards until after the spring is squashed so compactly that it is permanently shorter than before: the pressure was reduced by half without the upper pin even moving. I tried it on another pressure regulator with similar, though less dramatic results. So I made a little tool to remove the spring stop at the bottom of the regulator shaft to use for future pressure reduction. I'm pretty sure that a shorter spring would result in a different pressure-to-rpm curve, though I didn't try to confirm that. Any thoughts?
:end Quote

Hi Guys, I'm new to this forum but have been following with interest. Is it at all possible that the spring can get damaged or shorter by forcing the valve from the inside to make the pressure less. I had to push it from the inside and had to use a vise to press the pin back.

Thx for any feedback
Fatmobile
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Re: internal injection pump pressure

Post by Fatmobile »

I can imagine putting the spring into coil bind
then using it to drive the pressed-in adjustment pin back upwards might hurt the spring.

I don't think it always ruins or changes the value of a spring when the coils touch.
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
Mariusb
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Re: internal injection pump pressure

Post by Mariusb »

Hi Again,

So I've been playing with my pumps pressure, Currently set at 3.4bar at 1000 Engine RPM. I have one more question.
Does the Throttle position and LDA position affect the pressure at all.

I'm asking as I set the pressure with the idling adjusted to 1000, throttle closed. I phoned a local diesel shop yesterday to get the correct pressures for my pump and the guy gave me 2 pressures for each RPM value, one for LDA (boost) and one for pump pressure. On both they had the LDA on 1 bar.

Interesting thing, my pump is used on a Mahindra Scorpio and the pressure is as follows:
0 460 414 228
VE4/ 11F 1900 R904-3
700 pump rpm: lda 1bar, pump 5.1bar
1500 pump rpm: lda 1bar, pump 7.6bar
Mariusb
Glow Plug
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Re: internal injection pump pressure

Post by Mariusb »

OK, I can now answer my own question.
The LDA's pressure makes no difference to the pumps internal pressure. My pressure was set to 3.4 bar at 1000 Engine rpm. That was about 4.1 bar at 1400 engine rpm, so I was of by about 1 bar. I tapped the pressure valve and got it spot on at 5.1 at 1400 engine rpm. My pump is still in good nick as it was spot on at 7.6 bar at 3000 engine rpm. Now we just have to see if that mileage can improve.
Quantum-man
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Re: internal injection pump pressure

Post by Quantum-man »

Marius,
I was going to post, but I have been technically crippled by my original computer with all my collected pump data on it, blue screening for the last 2 years or so. My initial statement would have been lDA not affecting timing, but what held me back was that the late mk2 SB pumps [intercooled] were claimed by VW to have load dependant timing. This is pre AAZ stuff. Your pump seems to be late issue

Anyway if we assume that your pump is very similar to the majority of mk2 stuff then I'd say that the internal pressures of your pump are way above that required for the mk2 pumps, and even the infamous yellow dot series.

Very strange. I can see of no inherent benefit of such high pressures, only extra strain to seals, and lift pump.

I say lower internal pressures acompanied with lower rated advance springs is better design engineering...
"I'm not here to help... I'm here to Pro-Volke"

Be like meeee...Drive a Quantum TD
...The best work-horse after the cart...

Quantae grow on you...but Rabbits are like roses...
... girls like em ;o)

Only one Darwin, Einstein, Poe and Verne.
That is why if you listen, you will learn:
From the one and only Quantum-man,
Who sees the worms from outside of the can.

7 Quantae in 20 years; 4 dead and 3 TD's still alive [2 wagons & 1 fastback] oh and a GTD :o)
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