IP lock tool slop

tylernt · Post by **tylernt** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:38 pm

After setting my '82 to the "standard performance" setting of .86mm for a few days, I decided I wanted less smoke on cold starts and more power, so I bumped it up to the "improved performance" spec of .96mm.

When I checked my work, I was way off. Adjusted again, checked again, way off.

Come to find out, there is like .30mm of slop in my "factory" IP locking pin!

So I timed it by slowly turning the crank until I could just slide the pin into the locking hole in the bracket. I think I actually ended up more retarded though because I get black smoke instead of blue smoke on startup.

How do you guys use sloppy locking tools? Take all the tension out of the timing belt by slipping in the pin, then turning the crankshaft clockwise until the pin stops you? Or do what I did above?

This is so annoying... my timing was perfect before I melted my timing belt on my timing cover, and ever since replacing the belt I've never been able to get it right. I used to be able to do a winter start with only the tiniest wisp of smoke, now it's like I lit off a smoke grenade.

Vincent Waldon · Post by **Vincent Waldon** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:07 pm

Not sure I understand your technique.... but are you talking about adjusting the timing using the dial gauge with the pump locked ??

As far as I know, you lock the pump/cam with the crank at TDC to ensure the belt is in the right notch on all three sprockets.

You then
- release all the locks
- install the dial gauge
- preload the gauge
- rotate the engine backwards until the dial gauge stops moving
- zero the dial gauge
- rotate the engine forwards until exactly TDC
- read the gauge
- rotate the pump to adjust as required
- tighten the pump, rotate the engine a couple revolutions, then check the timing again

As least that's how I do it... perhaps I"m missing what you mean ?

tylernt · Post by **tylernt** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:18 pm

Hmm. I guess I did it a bit different:

Rotate engine to TDC
Lock pump
Install gauge
Unlock pump
Turn engine counterclockwise until dial stops
Zero gauge
Turn engine slowly back to TDC until pump lock slips into place
Loosen pump, adjust to spec, tighten pump
Unlock pump

I didn't lock the cam because I was too lazy to remove the valve cover (and if I take the valve cover off too many times it leaks and I have to buy a new gasket). I bet that's my problem. The cam lock has basically zero slop in it.

Vincent Waldon · Post by **Vincent Waldon** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:51 pm

Just my thoughts:

- when you rotate the engine back until the pump lock slides into place you're close, but the real marker is TDC on the flywheel, especially if there's slop in the lock. I wouldn't worry about the lock but just make sure you are exactly at TDC according to the flywheel when you take the reading. I then lock the cam again while rotating the pump (if required) so that the engine doesn't drift from TDC.

- without taking the valve cover off perhaps you're not at TDC but 180 degrees out ? There's a second hole on the pump sprocket which might fool you ? Both cam lobs on #1 are up ?

- the cam should be perfectly aligned at TDC as well.. the Bentley has you loosen the cam sprocket so that it rotates freely, lock everything at TDC, and then tighten the sprocket.

In my experience it doesn't take much pump/cam/TDC misalignment to go from "starts great, no smoke, lots of power" to "starts hard, lots of smoke, totally gutless".

tylernt · Post by **tylernt** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:01 am

- without taking the valve cover off perhaps you're not at TDC but 180 degrees out ?

I have an index mark on the passenger side of my pump sprocket. It obviously won't indicate a precise TDC, but at least I know I'm not 180 out (I have a plastic oil baffle that hides the cam lobes under the oil cap).

In my experience it doesn't take much pump/cam/TDC misalignment to go from "starts great, no smoke, lots of power" to "starts hard, lots of smoke, totally gutless".

You got that right!! There are no shortcus in this process it seems.

Post by **Fatmobile** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:32 am

I don't own a pump lock tool. I've never needed one and don't understand how they help with timing.

Turn engine counterclockwise until dial stops
Zero gauge
Turn engine slowly back to TDC until pump lock slips into place
Loosen pump, adjust to spec, tighten pump
Unlock pump

I guess where my procedure would differ is:
Zero gauge
Turn engine slowly back to TDC by rolling car forward (car is in 5th gear). Grabbing the driver's side tire and turning it allows me a good view of the timing hole while the engine is turning. Stop when marks line up while car is rolling forward.
Check gauge and turn injection pump until the gauge reads correctly.
Tighten pump bolts and injector lines at the end of the pump.

3Bunnys · Post by **3Bunnys** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:54 am

Vince is right, that pump lock tool only helps you when you initially reinstall the belt to get it in the right notch. It can be helpful because the pump has a some spring load in it and the pulley doesn't like to sit at its TDC position while you fumble around trying to slide the belt on.

Like Fats I don't own a tool, but I have been known to use a coupla clamps on belt to hold it in place on sprockets as I work things together.

As far as timing the pump; if you put a scribe mark on the pump flange and on the bracket as a reference you'll quickly discover that you don't have to rotate the pump very much, (1/32"), to have a big affect on timing, especially that last hundredth or so of a millimeter as the plunger inside the pump is being pushed out by the roller cams in the pump.

Timing is not hard, but it can be tedious, you need to double check everything three times, rotate the engine several times to make sure nothing is hitting and then check that timing one more time.

Good Luck R

tylernt · Post by **tylernt** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:16 am

Well I give up. I adjusted it to 0.98 again ('82 enhanced performance setting) with the cam lock tool and I still have hard smoky starts. I verified cold start function by engaging it when I had the gauge on there, and the timing did advance a bunch (I didn't note exactly how much, .2 to .3 or so).

My glow plugs are only 1 year old. I sometimes double-cycle them in the winter, though. Do you think my plugs could be going bad after just 1 year? They are Bosch brand fast glow plugs. My injectors are freshly rebuilt so they shouldn't be eroded from a bad spray pattern.

libbybapa · Post by **libbybapa** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:36 am

Are you using the flywheel mark and bell-housing pointer to verify TDC???

Andrew

Vincent Waldon · Post by **Vincent Waldon** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:49 am

and, did you pull the valve cover, loosen the cam pulley, and sync everything at exactly TDC (as per the flywheel in Andrew's post) before removing all the locks and setting the pump timing ?

Given that you had no issues until you had to reset the timing due to a timing belt change it really feels like there's still a timing issue.

If not, given the young state of your injectors, I'd do a compression test... maybe you suddenly have a sticking/warped valve.... but my money's still on timing since that's the only thing that suddenly changed.

Keep at it... you'll figure it out... eventually !!!

Vince

Krazy · Post by **Krazy** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:14 pm

A cheap pump lock that you may or may not have is a Snap-On Deepwell 13 mm socket in 3/8" drive. I have used one of these before.

3Bunnys · Post by **3Bunnys** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:14 pm

TylerNT... You say you give up after trying one more time with CAM LOCK TOOL. You do not use the cam lock tool while adjusting timing.

I'm going to assume here that your belt is properly installed and that with the engine at TDC your cam is at TDC and your timing is close; if at crank TDC your cam or pump are off by one belt tooth or more, all bets are off!!!

You set up your dial indicator and rotate your crank backwards from TDC until it stops moving (the dial indicator that is). Note dial reading and/or zero dial. Then you rotate clockwise until the timing mark on the flywheel is dead on TDC. The change in your dial indicator reading is your timing. Less than your desired .98mm movement; rotate top of injector pump towards engine, more than your desired .98, rotate top of pump away from engine (towards radiator). (If when going from no movement to TDC your dial reading goes up and then starts to come back down, your pump timing is over advanced by at least one belt tooth. Likewise if you don't get anywhere enough movement when you reach TDC you are retarded by at least one belt tooth)

Doesn't take much IP rotation to make a big change. A coupla scribe marks on pump flange and mounting plate will help you make small incremental changes.

Precision counts. Get a good strong flashlight and make sure you are dead on TDC. If your off TDC by a 1/16" it will have a big affect on timing. I use a little of my wife's bright red finger polish to paint the TDC mark on flywheel, helps with my old eyes and poor shop lighting
.
Good Luck.... R

tylernt · Post by **tylernt** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:44 pm

Well thanks for the replies. When I changed my clutch, I somehow managed to get the flywheel installed wrong so my flywheel mark is in the wrong place. I painted a white dot on the flywheel (I had the oil pan off so I could see the crankshaft) as close as I could get it, but it's still probably not perfect.

I also haven't broken loose the cam sprocket for this same reason, without a precise TDC I'm afraid of munching my valves.

It starts better if I triple-cycle the glow plugs. So now I'm debating if I should a) live with it until next winter b) replace the glow plugs or c) risk re-timing the cam without a perfect TDC mark.

One last variable for consideration. About this time I switched to B20 biodiesel. Now, everything I've ever read about biodiesel says it smokes LESS, so this should not be causing my problem, right?

Vincent Waldon · Post by **Vincent Waldon** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:27 pm

This is just my personal opinion, but I think you are wasting your time on any other troubleshooting activities (like the glow plugs, biodiesel) until you set the timing perfectly... this is a game where thousandths of an inch make a big difference!

As I understand it there are actually a couple of techniques one can use to accurately discover where TDC is when your flywheel is wrong... perhaps others here on the board have some pointers. The one I know consists of pulling the number 1 injector and snaking a probe (like a piece of wire) down like a depth gauge...a bit tricky with an IDI but evidently it can be done. You then approach TDC by a fixed depth, mark a refence point on the flywheel, , leave TDC by the same fixed depth, mark a second reference point on the flywheel, and then TDC is exactly in the middle.

Like I said, others may know different/better ways to do it (a seach of the various forums may help).

Just my opinion,

Vince

stopping · Post by **stopping** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:44 am

buddy!

You gotta open your valve cover and at least get your eye on it!

Never heard of it but what if the belts were slightly different lengths from cam to drive? That might be enough combined with the pump out to do as you describe....

I too am paranoid about glow plugs (any many other things) because that is my experience (2 burnt out twice), however we all end up with more difficult troubles later in life and glow plugs should be an easily eliminated variable. IE... you might want to test you plugs to be sure (you find the test ok?) but otherwise you have timing issues. If you have removed the flywheel without putting a timing mark and then have changed the timing belt; there is no time like the present for finding your Top Dead Center timing.

Like he said there are tricks and the wire is on of them (knowledge from the form... KFF???) so you can find it if you want to fix the problem.