The Switch From No.2 to No.1 Diesel

[Op-Ivy]

When, in the spring, do gas stations usually switch back to the No.2 diesel from the No.1? I emailed my regular station a while ago and I still haven't received a reply.


Thanks, Matt

[JRM]

Good question, with ULSD i was pondering this myself

[scottmartin49]

My dealer told me that because of the shortage of low sulfur kero most stations weren't even getting a winter blend, just an additive package put into the regular diesel. All the blend was going to metro ("hi-pollution") areas and he was told by citgo to to just add the dyed kero to the tank of anyone who felt the need for below -20f. protection! The supplemented stuff was good to -10 to -20 supposedly.

This is in northern new york btw.

I did a varying mix for a few critical weeks but mostly used pump diesel with an additive. No probs.

[82vdub]

I think that when you get diesel fuel at the gas station and the pump says #2, they are selling #2 diesel fuel, but in the winter some stations go to a winter blend. I don't think the winter blend #2 diesel fuel is actually #1 fuel, but that it is some sort of blend but still considered a blended #2 fuel. That's my .02, but I don't know this for a fact.

[hagar]

# 1 and # 2 diesel has not been sold in Kanada for years.-------for highway use.

We have only ULSDF Shell Oil product code 320-043 and 320-110,

get a blending chart from Shell Oil . it is adjusted according to ZONES.

Summer blend and Winter blend.

hagar.

[Op-Ivy]

Hmm. I still don't understand. I thought diesel fuel is changed from a winterized fuel to summer fuel and vise versa?

Here is the response I finally got from Shell. It seems simple enough but I either don't understand it either or it didn't answer my question...

Dear Matt:


Diesel #1 is a winter type of diesel with a fixed cloud point. Diesel #2 is a seasonal diesel with an adjusted cloud point according the season, the minimum ambient temperature. There is no switching between these two diesel fuels.

Regards,

[hagar]

Op-Ivy ---old hagar promised to help you , and help you he will..

The following is pure hagar GOSPEL ---ALL you Gall's and Guy's ---read my lip's..

ALL VW diesels from 1977 to at least 1984 -----maybe longer . Comes with a Operators manual ------that clearly states # 2 Diesel ONLY.

Why ? I shall explain in the SAGA at least one more time..

Op-Ivy give me details about WHAT you asked Shell Oil Kanada,. and give me the name that gave you that answer , -- OK ?. ---get things in WRITING.

hagar.

[82vdub]

Op-Ivy, #1 and #2 diesel fuels are two totally different grades of fuel where #1 is thinner and has much less lubrication properties to it. #2 fuel is the standard automotive and truck fuels that you get at the gas station, but I've seen some selling #1 fuel as well. I believe there is actually 7 grades of diesel fuel (or probably better called fuel oil).

#2 fuel is #2 fuel, no matter what time of year it is. However, in the colder climates, some (not all) fuel stations sell a winterized #2 fuel mix, but it's still a #2 grade fuel. Exactly what they use to winterize it, I do not know. They may mix #2 with some #1 fuel, kerosene, or something else to lower it's gel point, but it's still considered a #2 grade fuel.

[Op-Ivy]

Ah! I get it now. Thanks 82vdub and Hagar!

My main question was wondering when they start winterizing it. Apparently they don't change it at one point. They change it constantly.

I sent the same question back and got a much better response from someone else.

Matt,

In Canada we offer 'seasonal diesel' (or Type B). What it means is that the properties of diesel are adjusted once in every two weeks to suite the temperature of a given geographic area. It is adjusted at the refinery based on Environment Canada weather report. Hence there is no clear date for switching from winter fuel to summer fuel and vise versa. These changes take place [through] out the spring, and again in the fall.

Thanks

[VW Jon]

I used to be able to buy 1 and 2 separately, but not for several years. You can only buy 2 or winterized locally. I used to mix it 80% 2 to 20% 1 for winter use. It must have been too difficult for people to do this, so they mix it for you.

[rebuilder]

Note to VW Jon,Op-Ivy,82vdud, Hagar

Couldn't resist adding some historical and current information on fuels.

Historical Information

First off twenty years ago when diesel fuels had 500ppm of sulfur the fuel specification was set by a minimum boiling point (IBP) and a maximum boiling point (FBP). Typical numbers for #2 diesel were 350F and 550F respectively. #1 diesel was a lighter material (aka Kerosene) and had a typical boiling range of 180F IBP and 265F FBP. Sulfur specifications were met by reducing the sulfur level through a process called hydrofining where Hydrogen was contacted with the fuel under high pressure and temperature making hydrogen sulfide which was separated from the fuel. The hydrogen sulfide was set to a Claus plant that removed produced elemental sulfur from the hydrogen sulfide. When the weather got cold and the temperature went below the cloud point specification (typical 20F) additives went put into the fuel to improve its low temperature flow characteristics (aka Paramins additives) and depress the cloud point. Incidentally the cloud point and the filter plug point are different numbers.

Current information

Due to the imposition of low sulfur regulations (15ppm) the fuel processing scheme has changed. The change is that hyrofining is not being used to reduce sulfur level because it is not capable economically to reducing sulfur level to 15ppm with the previous feedstock. Current process used by most refiners is to make paraffin molecules out of other hydrocarbons through a process called hydrogenation. This effectively makes paraffins by adding hydrogen molecules to other hydrocarbons that are left over from processing of other products (aka aromatics). Sulfur level is reduced by multiple hydrofining.

So the price has gone up due to the increased price of oil and the increased cost of refining the product. The composition has changed also as many of you have noticed through its color and viscosity. The lubricity of sulfur compounds for the pump is also missing.

As Hagar stated, #2 diesel is #2 diesel by boiling range composition. Specs are published in the standard ASTM sheets along with all the other fuel products. Temperature extremes are dealt with by additives. We used to deal with low temperature by adding kero roughly 10% by volume would depress the cloud and cold filter plug point from 20F down to -20F. Can't do that any more because the kero is all higher than 15ppm but K-1 kero doesn't have any dye.

If anyone has further questions on fuels write me a private note.

One last point, the reason I know some much about this topic is that I spent a career working for the people that make the stuff. One of my many assignments was at Strathcona Refinery (just acorss the street from Shell in Edmonton)

[82vdub]

Temperature extremes are dealt with by additives. We used to deal with low temperature by adding kero roughly 10% by volume would depress the cloud and cold filter plug point from 20F down to -20F. Can't do that any more because the kero is all higher than 15ppm but K-1 kero doesn't have any dye.

Very interesting reading. Are you saying (from above quote) that kerosene can't be added to ULSD fuels because kerosene now contains more than 15ppm sulfer content? What is the ppm sulfer content of kerosene?

[rebuilder]

Responding to 82vwbud

Sulfur in Kero is quite high depending on if it is dyed red or not. The red is usually close to 500ppm. K-1 is usually less in the 100ppm range.

[hagar]

Op-Ivy to further muddy the fuel problems ----NOTE I SAID FOR STREET USE .

We can still get # 2 diesel for off road use. -----so why does hagar not use it ? -----simple to answer -- I LIKE THE NEW 15 max ppm fuel . But for my other equipment I still use high sulfur fuel.

hagar.

[Op-Ivy]

Good read rebuilder! Thanks for the info!


Hagar, you mean you can still get #2 at the fuel station right by your house? What are they called again?