My 1.7TD Rabbit GTI project.

This is a place for us to share progress on and upgrades to our vw diesels.

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Fatmobile
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My 1.7TD Rabbit GTI project.

Post by Fatmobile »

Like I don't have enough projects going already,...
I've been gathering parts for this project for over a year now. I had a solid lifter TD block that was bored out to it's biggest bore and would need sleeves if i was to use it again. Going to 1.7 pistons would give it new life.... without using sleeves.
I got the pistons from a guy over on the GTD forum. Had them shipped over from europe. They are for the 1.7 TD, which uses the same rods in a KY block and I'm told was used in some eurovans.
Here's one side by side with a 1.6TD piston:
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The pistons are so big that a 1.6 headgasket won't fit over them.... I'll have to use a 1.9 metal headgasket. This gasket works well with the later hydrolic lifter engines and last fall I was lucky enough to find an '86 TD Jetta with a hydro head.... so the 1.6 solid lifter TD block will need to wait for another project.
Image

I started pulling the engine apart yesterday.
It's obvious some did work on it before it died. As we know, it's hard to give up on an '86 Wolfsberg TD Jetta. The head looks like it was rebuilt. The valves are very tight... with the cam holding them open there is very little side-to-side play. Only small cracks between the valves on a couple cylinders.
There were a few mistakes made by the previous mechanic,... maybe we can learn something:
Not a mistake but note the intermediate shaft seal is pushed out, due to internal block pressures/blowby.
See the red silicone he/she used to seal the waterpump? Image
Now you see it again, stuck in the passageways of the head.
Image
Image
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This waterport gasket was put on wrong:
Image
The headbolts were covered in granules. Not sure where they came from, probably the headolt holes. Not sure if it's just oxidation and salts that formed in the holes while the headbolts were in or they didn't clean the holes before they put the bolts in.
Image
This is the top surface of the block:
Image
Hard to see but it looks like they took a spinning disc to it, to clean it up before the new head, same swirls on the head. It was good to remove the head and see no valve marks on the pistons. It died a slow death, nothing catastrophic.
I'm seeing a few small cracks in the prechambers and the PCs stand up above the surface a little too much. I think it shows in a couple of the pictures above.
Also notice the punch mark on the prechambers. I only see these on known TD heads,... and I think the PCs are smaller on a TD head.
I got an '83 or is it '84? Rabbit body. 2 door, no sunroof. Mercedes ash grey,... solid body, almost no interior but I've been saving light blue interior parts from Old Blue (may she rest in peace).
So this project officially started today. The machinist gets the block and pistons Monday.
Rods get new ARP bolts and the bushings are just slightly smaller than the pins in the 1.7 pistons so I won't have to buy new bushings, just get the old ones reamed a little. I'm being told that new rod bolts means the rods will have to be sized, so savings in the bushings will go to that if the mechinist says it's needed.
I do worry about compression, with the larger pistons shoving more air into the prechamber and space at the top including the valve recesses it could be too high. I might go with the thickest gasket to help keep it low.
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
CoolAirVw
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Location: Kansas City area, Missouri

Post by CoolAirVw »

Neato! If this works out, (have others allready done it??), then worn out blocks can have new life.

We can then keep the cars on the road longer!
Fatmobile wrote: Also notice the punch mark on the prechambers. I only see these on known TD heads,... and I think the PCs are smaller on a TD head.
My TD has the punch marks. ARRRRGGGG! I just realized the idiots at the machine shop when my PC chamber fell out replaced my PC chamber with one from a NA. The hole is even a different shape! I never noticed till just now when I went and looked at the pictures in the thread!
Richard
85 Jetta TD
ASE Certified Master Auto-Technician with L1 Advanced Engine Diagnostic Rating and Light Diesel certification
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Fatmobile
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Location: north central Iowa

Post by Fatmobile »

I'm thinking the NA diesels have a prechamber that is wider... for some reason these looked smaller than the NA ones I usually deal with.
I'll try to get the measurements soon.
I don't think anyone over this side of the pond has done it. There' is a guy on the GTD forum who said there were a couple folks across the pond who have driven a 1.6 converted to 1.7 very hard, cracked the block on one and bent a rod on the other.
Sounds like it should have all the power I need.
The pistons were $420 shipped. Probably a little cheaper than sleeving the old block. I had to give the guy half the money and wait. Sent the other half when they came in. The way the dollar is dropping the price is probably a bit higher now. One reason I hurried up and bought a set.
They are moly coated.
I think the old pistons look great. I haven't checked on ring slop but it didn't seem bad at all... so I might have a used set of TD pistons if I do resleeve something.... that might make it more affordable.
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
Fatmobile
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Posts: 7564
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: north central Iowa

Post by Fatmobile »

I was originally going to use a mechanical block but was worried about using a metal head gasket with it.
I've seen a few cures for the problem, from MK4 oil pan gasket sealant,.. to gasket used for oil filler cap.
I decided to go with the original plan. The block was already bored to the max and needed these pistons if it was to be reborn.
Luckily they got rid of their old machine and just got a newer boring bar('98 compared to the '78 machine they were having a hard time finding parts for),... took them awhile to get parts that were missing so they hadn't started on the block a couple weeks ago when I informed them of my change of heart.
The hydro block is on it's first bore and can/will be brought back to life with a set of normal oversize pistons.
So it's officially at the shop and should be bored in a couple weeks.
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
MPalm
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Posts: 414
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:52 pm
Location: Swe

Post by MPalm »

What´s the 1.7 engine from, never heard of a VW 1.7 :?

Or do you take the pistons from a 1.9 and put them in a bored 1.6?
Golf IV TDI -98 330000km
Fatmobile
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Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: north central Iowa

Post by Fatmobile »

I think they are for a eurovan or something.
I had them imported from europe for $420 a set.
They fit the 1.6 rods and block.
Reportedly there are folks over in europe that have been sticking these in 1.6TD blocks. They have beat the hell out of them, cracking a block and bending rods. Really hard to get rod-bending power for $100
The 1.6TD block I originally intended these for (back to the original plan) was bored to the max, it was either get these pistons, mess with sleeves or scrap the block. It was the only TD block I had at the time.
Spending the extra $100 for the pistons had to be cheaper/better than finding a good TD block or installing sleeves and when I'm done I'll have something special.... might be the car that beats my buddy's '84 Jetta gasser.
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
MPalm
Turbo Charger
Posts: 414
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:52 pm
Location: Swe

Post by MPalm »

OK, maybe we didn´t get that to Sweden, all Transporter diesels where 1.6D or TD until T4 came and got the AAZ and the 2.4litre 6-cyl, or is it a 5-cyl??

Sounds good though, rod bending power is the only thing these cars lack :lol:
Golf IV TDI -98 330000km
Fatmobile
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Posts: 7564
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: north central Iowa

Post by Fatmobile »

I went to the shop today and he greets me with, "We have a problem".
He didn't know much about the oil squirters and how to safely remove them.
They weren't going to move so he got the torch and heated them a little, He would have done this on his own but has seen seals on these in big trucks and didn't want to have melted seal in the oil passageway.
After a little heating to soften the lock tite, they came right out.
He had the maching all set up for a Ford 9N and it's the same head as he would need for the VW so it should be done soon.
The same shop is also checking/resizing the rods because of the new ARP rod bolts. They have a great machine for doing rods, more accurate than that hone most shops have. The bushings will be bored.
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
libbybapa
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Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:05 am

Post by libbybapa »

The 1.7 came in the Vanagon option in parts of Europe. It was a non-turbo motor.

Andrew
Fatmobile
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Location: north central Iowa

Post by Fatmobile »

Somewhere there must have been a 1.7 TD, or plans for one; because I didn't cut the oil squirter slots in these pistons.
I suppose I should take a visit to the shop this week,.. probably have a bill to pay.
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
MPalm
Turbo Charger
Posts: 414
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:52 pm
Location: Swe

Post by MPalm »

Maybe they all had the squirters, like the 1.9 pistons?
Golf IV TDI -98 330000km
Fatmobile
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Posts: 7564
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: north central Iowa

Post by Fatmobile »

With the 1.9 they built a TD version.
With these 1.7s, maybe it was just a dream.
Now it's my dream. :)
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
Fatmobile
Global Moderator
Posts: 7564
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: north central Iowa

Ode to a TD block

Post by Fatmobile »

I was reading on the GTD forum, the 1.7 diesel had oil squirters even though it wasn't a TD.
I went to the shop today and they notified me that my block is cracked.
The crack is in the third main bearing area,... right through the oil hole.
I guess it's back to the hydro block,... Fate? Perhaps. :)
I'll take/post some pics when I get it home.
This block came from a salvage yard in WI. A friend needed some work on his Jetta and since he was coming here he threw the engine in a trailor, turbo pump and all. The first TD I had running; it smoked too much at idle.
Upon disassembly I found someone installed used NA pistons and ground oil squirters relief slots into them.
The crank sprocket keyway was messed up.
Looked like the pistons hit the valves when the crank sprocket let go of the keyway,.. so they installed used NA pistons,... and a new topline head yeah.
Now let us bow our heads,...
We can be sure that this block served it's owners well, it had a good, long life but met a tragic, lingering end. Those who loved it put great effort into keeping it's pistons pounding, they worked hard and spent much to keep it alive, already bored to the max it had hoped for one more rebirth as a 1.7TD,... but broken beyond what technology could repair it will be laid to rest. RIP. :oops:
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
Fatmobile
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Posts: 7564
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: north central Iowa

Post by Fatmobile »

I swapped blocks,... again.
The cracked block is home and the hydro block is at the shop.
I'll try to get a pic of it tomorrow.
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
libbybapa
Turbo Charger
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:05 am

Post by libbybapa »

I believe the non-turbo pre-chambers are larger, but the larger size may well have been incorporated into the TD head at some point. I've have several TD and non-turbo heads here. I'll try to remember to put the calipers to pre-chambers on each of them tomorrow.

Andrew
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