5 speed conversion

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CoolAirVw
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5 speed conversion

Post by CoolAirVw »

This thread was Formerly titled 020 check out and reseal. I changed the name, after including 5 speed conversion info, so it would pull up easily in search function.

From viewtopic.php?t=8317"%20target="_blank Scott brought me a 5 speed and wanted the internals checked out and the trans resealed.

Heres the grimey beast he got from a salvage yard out of a caddy diesel.

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I found almost nothing wrong with it. There was some wear on the 5th fork.

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Here's the case after coming out of the "steam cabinet" parts washer. Hardly looks clean at all, but all the grease is gone. (compare to first picture) Lots of crusty oxidation on the case and paint wont stick to it.

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So we gave the case the sand blast treatment. This is the empty case, bolted together and plugged to keep the sand out.

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Heres a close-up after the bead blast.

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Then a quick coat of paint, before reinstalling the internal parts.

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Got to show the 2nd shot also because the flash makes it look really pretty. I hope I dont get greasy fingerprints on it while reinstalling the internals! :lol: :shock:

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Early 020's like this one have squared notches in the hubs that tend to crack. All the hubs in this trans were squared but only one had a crack. Scott just wanted to replace the one with a crack. I'll get a picture of the early vs late hub, after the parts arrive, but I doubt the crack will show up in a picture.

The whole trans was disassembled, and all the individual parts went through the steam cabinet, we're replacing gaskets, seals, the cracked hub, and the 5th gear fork and associated parts are being updated to the late style.

More to come.....
Last edited by CoolAirVw on Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:01 am, edited 5 times in total.
Richard
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Dakotakid
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Post by Dakotakid »

Richard, is this just basic paint (like Rust-oleum) or is it something special? Does it tend to flake off quickly or does it work for the long haul?
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Fatmobile
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Post by Fatmobile »

I've never put a trany back together, taken a few apart.
I'll say it again, he's lucky to have you working on this car.
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CoolAirVw
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Post by CoolAirVw »

Dakotakid wrote:Richard, is this just basic paint (like Rust-oleum) or is it something special? Does it tend to flake off quickly or does it work for the long haul?
Its made for aluminum to make it look like aluminum. I'll get the exact name for you. I dont know if it'll last for the long haul, but I love the way it looks. I know it wouldn't last without the bead blasting first.

If it holds up I'm gonna start using it alot! Alternators, AC compressors, transmissions, "pancake" style fan shrouds (air cooled) ect.
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A1-2-A3
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Post by A1-2-A3 »

Looks like not too much to the tranny, I think you could handle a rebuild fatmobile, but likeyou said this guy sure does good work!! I have only done 6, 13, 15, 18 speeds for trannies and never took apart a FWD tranny before, looks not too bad, just need a good area to set things out so you don't mix anything up and say "which way did that go?" A good manual you can do anything. Not many people have good manuals and refer to the haynes or shade tree discovery system.

You find you need lots of special tools to rebuild a 020? Probably a press is needed when you get into it?
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CoolAirVw
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Post by CoolAirVw »

Here's the early hub with squared notches where the "dogs" go. Squared off notches lead to cracks. Rounded areas where the "dogs" go is the late hub. Aircooled bugs had this design problem too, and the same upgrade to fix it. Seems like they would have wisened up before designing the 020.

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I wanted to show the lined "blocking rings". Not a great picture, because the lined one just looks dirty, but that is actually a coating. The forks have a similar lining. 2 of the rings in this trans were lined, but the others were just brass. I checked with our supplier and they only supply brass rings. Shift quality probably not as good with the brass, but they are readily available for a reasonable price.

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Heres the partially reassembled trans.

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Here's the seal kit from our supplier. Axle seals=WRONG! Throwout Arm Seal = NOT PRESENT!

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The Case gasket was a Universal Fit type gasket. "Fits" early and late. I dont like the gap in the hole next to the bolt. There were two areas like that, so I filled the gap with silicone. I guess the late 020's have sealer instead of a gasket. I would prefer to assemble the trans that way, but it changes your clearances, and Scott didn't want to have to wait while I ordered shims to reset the clearance.

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Here's the trans on its way back together.

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Last edited by CoolAirVw on Thu May 07, 2009 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Richard
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CoolAirVw
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Post by CoolAirVw »

Sorry for the delay in posting. As usual I got too many projects. If I ever start a website I'm gonna call it TooManyProjects.com.

Earlier I said there was nothing wrong with the trans. Well I was wrong. Scott mentioned that the linkage bound up on him, as he was trying to shift the trans "on the bench" to see if it would go through the gears. After I reassembled it and "bench shifted" the trans, it worked good for awhile then once it "bound up" again. This is what I found.

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What your looking at is the shifter parts behind the big Allen plug. After taking it apart and reassembling several times (cuz I kept binding it up again), I finally figured out what was happening. The "finger" that pushes the shift forks, has moved too far torward you (in the pic) and has come out of the fork. Then when you move the shifter opposite of reverse it would bind the linkage because it was out of the fork. There is no gear there, but you still shouldn't be able to get the finger out of the fork.

The detent ball & spring assembly is what is supposed to stop that movement, when it reaches the end of the slot.

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Even though I really couldn't see any wear in the slot I welded up the end torward reverse. (actually I welded both ends because I did the wrong side first! Ooooops!)

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This kept the "finger" from travelling to far and kept it in the fork. Problem fixed!

Heres some eye-candy trans porn. Job finished.

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Oh, I lost the clutch lever stop, or it was never there. Anyone got one?

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Richard
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myke_w
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Post by myke_w »

Richard - how much would this service cost a person?

Any chance youd be willing to trade for some shiny new parts? :)

I could get you trannies shipped fedex and include the return lable to avoid the hassle of freight.

I'd love to have a few old boxes checked out and resealed :)
CoolAirVw
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Post by CoolAirVw »

Scott took his time getting the clutch, so it took us awhile before we converted his wabbit to a 5 speed. Plus I've been busy so no time to post pics. (sorry)

Obviously the easiest way to do a 5 speed conversion is to have a matching donor car to rob parts from as you do the conversion, but sometimes thats not possible. IE when you buy a trans by itself and the car is long gone, or when you have a donor car but you take so long on projects that the donor car is gone by the time you finish the project! :shock: :D :lol:

Take into account we were taking a 4 speed out of 77 rabbit and putting in a 5 speed from a later rabbit. If you using a trans from a later car, or another line (ie a jetta, scirocco ect), you may encounter other differences, which I'll comment and post pictures about some of them.

1. Rear mount... Direct drop in. (use original)

2. Axles.... Direct drop in (use original) Note: Some transmissions have different axle stubs (90mm vs 100mm). I'm not sure if you can swap the 4 speed stubs into a 5 speed. If anybody knows let me know and I'll edit this post.

3. Neutral/Reverse light switch... Direct drop in. (use original) Note: If you use a later trans the neutral switch is quite different. You will need the harness end to splice into, and also the late switches seem to fail alot. If you dont want cruise control or reverse lights then who cares! See left mount pics for neutral switch comparison.

4. Speedo cable... Direct drop in. (use original)

5. Front mount... Direct drop in. (use original)

6. Shifter... I used original 4 speed shifter. If your robbing parts off a donor car dont forget the shift knob with the 5 speed markings on it.

7. Clutch cable... We were able to reuse the original 4 speed clutch cable, by eliminating the round "thing" that connects it to the release arm. This may be a "early" design and not a 4 speed issue. This makes it necessary to have the "end" stop and rubber, from your donor car. See pic. If you dont have it they are still available new. The part number is 171798105. Gemo is a brand name, and I'll bet Jack can get this part for you.

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8. Left mount.... Our 4 speed trans had a left mount with 4 bolts going into the trans. Also note the neutral switch and compare to the 5 speed pic, two pictures down.

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The 5 speed trans had different mount set up with 2 bolts holding the mount to the trans.

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This is a spare 5 speed I have from a MK2. It has the 2 bolt mount, and a different neutral switch.

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It would have been best to get a 5 speed mount from a rabbit. You can't get this mount complete from the parts stores, only a insert. So if you forgot to get it from the donor, look for used. I found 2-3 cars being parted on the forums, where we could have got the mount, but Scott didn't want to wait so we cut and welded it, to make the original mount fit. It wasn't hard, but it certainly would have been better to have been prepared and just had the right mount.

Heres some pics of the modified mount. You can see the 4 bolt hole pattern is still there.

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If you look close you can see the weld, but we ground it down thoroughly even thought thats not really necessary.

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Modified mount from underside. I regret not taking pics during the process of modifying the mount. Sorry about that, but it would be easier to just buy the right mount anyway.

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9. Linkage.... I used all the 4 speed stuff from the shifter all the way to the firewall bushing. In front of the firewall bushing the selector lever needs to be from the 5 speed.

Here a pic of the 4 speed linkage that I'll call the "relay pivot". It is very similar to the 5 speed "relay pivot". I didn't make any comparisons to the 5 speed to see if it was the same. Maybe I'll have a chance to look later but I doubt I'll take it off and try the 4 speed linkage again to know for sure. I used the 5 speed relay pivot that was on the trans. EDIT....After looking at the picture of the 5 speed above I'm almost sure the 4 speed "relay pivot" would work on the 5 speed.

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I should also point out that if your using a MK2 trans to put in your rabbit the mount system of the MK2 trans is integrated into the "relay pivot" (see pic). I dont know how this would affect the linkage. Probably you can use the 4 speed "relay pivot". Maybe you could use the MK2 stuff "as is", but it wouldn't be very pretty. Anyone who knows about this stuff, please let me know in this thread or by PM and I'll edit here.

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Selector lever (part of linkage)... We used the selector lever from the donor. If you dont have the donor, then you can make your 4 speed one work easily. Some on this forum have lenthend their 4 speed selector lever by cutting it and welding in 2 inches of similar metal. For those who plan better, or without a welder, VwCaddy sells a adapter to make a 4 speeds lever as long as a 5 speed. Its cheap so just order one if you dont get the 5 speed selector lever from the donor car. (see pic)

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Completed Job
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Scott's very happy with his 5 speed. His RPM's are down on the hiway, and he has no complaints regarding having to shift 5-4 on long uphill stretches, even though he just has a 1.5 Liter.

He's only done 2 tanks since the change but he got 45 mpg on both tanks. Before the 5 speed he got anywhere from 38 to 45 depending on driving. Time will tell on total mpg improvements.

Actually this work has got me thinking on maybe a ratio change for my jetta.
Last edited by CoolAirVw on Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Richard
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Post by btrapr »

great info.... any one want to comment on how hard it is...to slide the guts back into a case... if I took one apart to inspect and clean the case?
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Re: 5 speed conversion

Post by supersisu »

CoolAirVW: When you modified the trans mount did you have any problems with the difference in height between the 5 sp two side bolt and the 4 sp four top bolt? I'm doing a 4 to 5 conversion now and I don't have a 5 sp mount and it look like the attachment on the 4 sp is a lot lower (about 50mm?) than on the 5 sp.
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awills0407
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Re: 5 speed conversion

Post by awills0407 »

i have a used 5 speed i wana put in my pickup but its neutral switch is opposite as urs in the pics my 4 speed has the big plug and my 5 has a two ???? what do u have to to for wireing to make eveything work the same if you can ?
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