just needs to start

moosestafa · Post by **moosestafa** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:20 am

It has been a while, but I finally got a rebuilt ip for my car, installed it, primed it, fuel is now being sucked from the tank and fuel is going into the injectors. It went from having a hard time cranking to finally....... well almost starting. Power is getting to my glow plugs (which are new) but the light inside the car for the glow plugs doesn't turn on. I just don't know what to do next it is so close to starting it just needs that little bit more of something to get going. It hasn't been running for a year now so I don't know if I need to do anything else to get it up. Here is where I left with the last forum topic viewtopic.php?t=7670&highlight=
I am past that now, but it still is not starting. Please help.

82vdub · Post by **82vdub** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:59 am

I read the other post, and that was pretty much dealing with getting the timing belt and IP timed with a little about no fuel getting to the injectors at the end.

If your car has a working block heater, I would plug that in for 1.5-2 hours then try to start the car. While cranking, keep your foot all the way on the floor so you get more fuel coming out of the IP. See if it starts then. This closely simulates a hot engine, which most diesels will start better when the engine is hot. If not, I'd suspect IP timing would be the culpret, assuming the engine does in fact run. I can't remember if your previous posts had a running car, or if you purchased a non running car.

Some have also had someone pull them with the car in gear to get it to start. Personally, I'd try getting it started by the starter for a while first before pull starting it.

Post by **Fatmobile** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:05 pm

The I-pump requires a key for the sprocket,.. I've heard of folks thinking it was like the cam, which has no key.
Other problem could be the max fuel screw isn't turned in far enough.

Cuz it sounds like fuel is flowing, through the pump and out the injectors, Might be not enough fuel,... or it's not shooting in at the right time.

You floor it while you crank the starter?

moosestafa · Post by **moosestafa** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:40 pm

IP timing shouldn't be a problem, I used the special tool and rotated the IP until it was in the range of .033-.037 in. It is at .036 right now and I triple checked the gague to make sure the timing was right so I wouldn't have to readjust the ip. I used the IP key while adjusting, but hay I will check it again just to make sure.

I also adjusted the fuel screw so that it can open as much as it can.

The car has not run since I have had it, but it is exciting to get it this close it was running before the ip leaked so they stopped driving it, but then again that is what they said, could not be true.

My foot is all the way down to the floor when I am trying to start it and that is when it sounds really close to starting, I will heat the block tonight and try it again, thanks for the tip.

I don't know if this makes a difference, when I was pulling out the old glow plugs I saw oil on the second and third glow plugs, is oil supose to be on them?

Post by **Fatmobile** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:54 pm

I haven't seen oil on glow plugs before.
Maybe someone sprayed oil in the cylinders to keep the cylinders lubed.
A local shop installed an engine from a junkyard, then could get it to rotate,... the yard had put oil in the cylinders and it was hydrolocked. Easy fix.

82vdub · Post by **82vdub** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:59 pm

The wet glow plugs could be diesel on a sooty plug, making it look like oil. Then again, it could be oil. At this point, I would not worry about it. Once energized, the oil or fuel will burn off.

Post by **Fatmobile** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:10 pm

Yeah, I had a pissing injector lately and everything was wet.

tawney · Post by **tawney** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:04 pm

Fuel, pump timing, glow plugs, compression, rotational speed when starting, cam setting. There can be several causes for each of those items being messed up enough to prevent starting, but those are about the only things it can be.

Fuel: you've loosened the nuts at the injectors and seen fuel leak out while cranking? If so, you know fuel is going to the injectors, but you could still have bad injectors that don't deliver the fuel properly.
Timing: not sure you understood Fatmobile's comment about the key on the sprocket: the cam sprocket is installed without a key to orient it properly to the shaft, but the injection pump sprocket has to be oriented on the pump shaft with the 'key' (steel half circle,) in the slot.
Glow plugs: it would be a good idea to connect a test light or meter that you could watch while cranking just to make sure they stay on long enough, especially since the dash LED isn't working.
Compression: low compression makes it hard to start, but if everything else is working well, it would probably at least start. Wouldn't hurt to check it if you've got access to a diesel compression tester.
Rotational speed when starting: the combination of low compression and slow rotational starting speed will keep it from starting. Pulling/pushing the car will get you better rotational speed, but taking the starter apart and cleaning and lubricating it will work wonders on an old starter.
Cam setting: it's relatively easy, so I'm assuming you've got it right, but it's also easy to check and make sure.

libbybapa · Post by **libbybapa** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:38 pm

Are the cam lobes up for #1 when the mark on the pump sprocket is aligned with the mark on the bracket/shield?

Andrew

moosestafa · Post by **moosestafa** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:56 am

I heated my engine block for 2 hrs, still no start, but man it sounds close. I know a signal is getting to the glow plugs but I will test to see if it stays on. If it only stays on for a sec what do I have to replace to fix it?

For TDC the cam lobes are up, the mark is lined up in the crankshaft peephole (what ever it is called lol). The IP is lined up with the shield and the sproket marker. The half moon key is installed on the IP so it wont slip (at least I am assuming that is why it is there). When I tested the IP timing it went to .027 so I rotated the IP until it went winthin the range of .033-.037, it is currently at .036. So I am almost positive it is not timing.

I am going to get a light test to make sure the glow plugs are getting a long enough current.

How do I test to know if the Injectors are bad? Fuel is getting to the injectors, the pump is doing what it is supose to be doing. In the bently manual it said that when the car doesn't start it could be timing, glow plugs, or injectors. ARe those the only possibilities for it not to start? You guys are great thanks for your help.

82vdub · Post by **82vdub** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:26 pm

One of the easiest items to try at this point is to loosen the IP and rotate it a bit to see if it starts. I'd try advanced (rotate towards the engine) and if that produces less of an indication that it will start, then try retardedd from where you have it now. Both times I'd have the block plugged in, if you think it came more closer to starting when it was plugged in.

Simple to test how long the glow plugs are energized. Take a cheap illuminated test light and test for voltage and how long voltage exists on the glow plugs when the key is turned on. Should be roughly 7 seconds for a fast glow plug car. If it's less than this, you can replace the relay, or get creative at a solution - either temporary or perminant - your choice. Some on this forum have replaced the glow plug relay with a manual push button they push when they want them on.

moosestafa · Post by **moosestafa** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:09 pm

Sweet lovin, you guys are great, no solid power is getting to the glow plugs, I read in the manual and it said their is a fuse conected to the firewall in the engine compartment. I found it but their isn't a fuse in it, there never has been. It is a plastic termanal that has one wire going in with a bolt end then a thin metal piece (I am assuming is the actual fuse) to another bolt end and wire. It is solid and not broken, their is also no power getting to the relay conected to the firewall when the glow plugs should be on.

I also cant seem to find the glow plug relay, I have no idea where it is so I can test #30? That is what it says in the manual. Could someone please let me know where I can find it? Also is their a way to temp. get power to the glow plugs so the engine can at least start? I am assuming that the glow plugs only need to be on for 7 sec to start it, then they are not needed to drive it. Is that correct? If so could I hook up a direct line from the battery for 7 sec before turning it and then start it? Thanks.

82vdub · Post by **82vdub** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:54 pm

The flat metal is the fuse. The glow plug relay is under the dash, either attached to the fuse panel, or intertwined with the wiring harnass above the fuse panel. Just look for the big fat wires going to a relay, and that's likely the one.

Yes, you can temporarily jumper the glow plugs. They run for about 7 seconds then go out. If you run them continuously while the engine is running (some time is ok, but not for much more than 5 seconds), they will burn out.

moosestafa · Post by **moosestafa** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:46 pm

Thanks, I will try it tonight. I found the relay up and behind everything. Because no power is getting to the fuse then I am assuming the glow plug relay needs to be replaced? If it doesn't start then it could be ip timing or bad injectors? I guess it doesn't hurt to get the injectors replaced, what is their life span anyways? Thanks again, I will order a relay tomorrow form here.

Post by **Fatmobile** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:11 am

There is a FAT red wire coming from the battery that is dedicated to the glow plugs,.. heads straight to the relay.
Check to see that there are a couple of these FAT red wires coming from the battery and they connected soundly.
Follow them back past the fusible links to make sure they are OK.
I had to jumper the glowplugs on a car I was just playing with, I cut the glow plug wire (the part from the fuse to the glowplugs) out of the bundle and it easily reached over to the battery.
Hagar suggests a glow plug jumper wire... a couple clips on the ends (I use alligator on the glowplug end, ammeter in the middle to read glow plug power draw and battery clip on the other) and a FAT wire between them. Clip it to the battery then touch it on the glow plugs.