Mysterious missing

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Josh
Turbo Charger
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 7:30 pm
Location: Algonquin, IL

Post by Josh »

A stopgap solution you might try if you needed it for some reason would be a magnetic oil pan heater. This could get you by until you can source the turbo pump and the time to make the swap.
-'79 rabbit, getting parted out
-'82 quantum wagon, gutting.
-'84 rehabbed quantum TD sedan, southern rustless beauty for sale
-'82 cherry Westy from AZ
-more all the time; are they breeding?
jolotter
Diesel Freak
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:05 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by jolotter »

I have a block heater installed. Unfortunately, where I live I have to park on the street so power is an issue. I've heard of people putting the hibachi under the oil pan to warm things up.

Or lighter oil.
83.5 Westy 1.6 TD
93 1.9TD engine in the shed
libbybapa
Turbo Charger
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:05 am

Post by libbybapa »

I would replace the oil pump with the correct one and have the problem solved. It shouldn't take more than a few hours.
jolotter
Diesel Freak
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:05 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by jolotter »

I took advantage of yesterday's balmy weather and swapped the oil pumps. I had the other pump with 26mm gears in the shed. The bigger pump gears are about 36mm. That's about 40% more flow.It took about 2 hours and I finished just as a light rain started.

Result: Unfortunately, I'm still having the stall, no compression issue. I think it's not as bad. I'll give it a few days to get a proper idea.

Maybe the pressure relief valve is stuck. I looked at it when it was out but decided to just swap on the pickup tube since the weather was limiting my work time.

20/20 hindsight.
83.5 Westy 1.6 TD
93 1.9TD engine in the shed
rsxsr

Post by rsxsr »

From memory the relief valve is in the pickup. That would account for while the problem is still there, but less. I believe the valve is retained by a tiny freeze plug staked into the housing. You can remove it with a slide hammer. The spring will come out. Most likely the piston is stuck and will need some assistance. If compressed air won't work, you might be able to use a tap into it. This is not a book repair. You will need to devise your own way to rescure the piston if you can clean it enough to move freely. The last time I did one, I tapped the hole and used an allen type pipe plug to hold the valve. Reuse the original plug at your own risk.
libbybapa
Turbo Charger
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:05 am

Post by libbybapa »

Your problem is the pressure control valve which is integral to the oil pump pickup tube. When I said to get the correct pump, I meant to get a NEW complete with pickup tube 1.6TD Vanagon oil pump. They come with the correct 36mm gears and the proper oil pressure control valve for the 36mm gear pump. They are still available new for about $150. Using the stock '82 diesel vanagon pickup tube is causing the issue and a new pump with the correct pickup tube will solve it. Part # for the correct pump is 068 115 105 BP and is available from Bus Depot.
jolotter
Diesel Freak
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:05 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by jolotter »

Tthat pump 068 115 105 BP is available in two versions, a Febi and a Meyle. They are both listed as being for Diesel Vanagon (1981-1984), not for TD Vanagon.
My pickup tube should be compatible with one of my pumps (26 or 36mm).
Probably I'll get the new pump and then take the old pressure relief valve apart to see what's what.

edit: That part is listed in ETKA as the correct part for the CS (n/a diesel) and the JX (european TD). So the problem is not the incorrect part, but a malfunctioning one.
83.5 Westy 1.6 TD
93 1.9TD engine in the shed
rsxsr

Post by rsxsr »

I don't have access to the ETKA for german vehicles, but I believe the relief valve needs to be balanced to work with hydraulic lifters on any engine. Does the JX german TD have hydraulic lifters?
jolotter
Diesel Freak
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:05 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by jolotter »

I use this http://etka.auto2.ru/
It help to brush up on your Romanian

The JX shows mechanical lifters in the early 80's as were all the VW diesels. I haven't checked more recent ones.
My engine is an MF from 1990.

I think the only solution for me is to get an oil pressure gauge going so I can monitor what's happening.
83.5 Westy 1.6 TD
93 1.9TD engine in the shed
libbybapa
Turbo Charger
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:05 am

Post by libbybapa »

They no longer make the 30mm pump that cam stock on the '82-'83 North American 1.6 diesel vanagons. All of the earlier diesel vanagon oil pumps have been superceded with the part # for the later 1.6TD 36mm pump and pressure control valve that I listed. If you are looking in ETKA for a US TD vanagon you aren't going to find one. Here's a screen capture from a ETKA with the vehicle being a European 1990 JX 1.6TD exuipped type 2 (vanagon):

Image

As you can see, the part number is as I stated before. The drawing is their generic oil pump drawing, so don't get thrown by that. I've gotten several of those pumps and know what I'm talking about. Your symptoms are classic symptoms of an improperly functioning or incorrect pressure control valve. Regardless, if you are using the '82 oil pump pickup tube on a 1.6TD motor it is the wrong part for your engine.
jolotter
Diesel Freak
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:05 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by jolotter »

I got all my diesel parts shipped in a crate from California about 4 years ago. From one of those places that imports used parts from Germany. I don't what year or application the pump came from.
What years did they make the TD in Europe? Was the NA an option as well?

Does it make sense that it would take 2-3000 mi. on a rebuild for the oil pressure to build to the point where the pressure valve couldn't handle the flow?
83.5 Westy 1.6 TD
93 1.9TD engine in the shed
libbybapa
Turbo Charger
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:05 am

Post by libbybapa »

The NA motor was sold in europe as well. It doesn't really make sense to me that the oil pressure went up after the engine wore in, other than the possibility of the pressure control valve not working properly (sticking closed). If I'm not mistaken, in all of your oil pump swapping you haven't yet replaced the control valve/ pickup tube which is the most likely culprit for the symptoms.
jolotter
Diesel Freak
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:05 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by jolotter »

You are absolutely right that the pickup tube with the control valve is the likely culprit and I will get to it soon.
My reasoning for the oil pressure rising is that as the engine wears into the new bearings, the parts would get closer and the oil would have less room to escape.
83.5 Westy 1.6 TD
93 1.9TD engine in the shed
jolotter
Diesel Freak
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:05 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by jolotter »

Here's my update, a year later:

I replaced the oil pump, and it cured the problem! Oh happy day.
Then I put the van away for the winter.

In the spring, i went on a road trip and the van started pouring white smoke and running like it was choking on the same. I pulled the belt cover off and found the intermediate shaft pulley was wobbling and was about to come right off the shaft! The timing belt was wandering off the pulleys, had worn it's width down by a third and skipped a tooth. No wonder I had oil pressure issues. When the engine wouldn't start it's because there was no oil pressure for the lifters. The intermediate pulley was just spinning on the shaft and not turning the oil pump at all.
I spent a few hours in the dark tightening the pulley, changing the belt and retiming the engine, and got back on the road just before sunrise, ready for another day of adventure.

In the end it was near catastrophic failure that led me to the solution.

Johann
83.5 Westy 1.6 TD
93 1.9TD engine in the shed
Fatmobile
Global Moderator
Posts: 7564
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: north central Iowa

Post by Fatmobile »

Thanks for hte update.

Sooo you didn't need a new I-shaft, from the pully spinning on it, wearing it down.
'91 Golf gasser converted to a 12mm pump, M-TDI.
'84 1.6TD Rabbit with a VNT-15 turbo, still setup to run on vegetable oil.
'84 GTI with 1.7TD pistons and intercooled.
2003 TDI wagon
2000 TDI Jetta.
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