Replacing timing belt - a couple questions

[StevenPH]

Hi all, thanks for all the help so far on the 89 Jetta. Mind if I throw some more questions at you?

So i have a leaky lip seal (seal on IP shaft by pulley) and am removing the belts and IP pulley to get at it. A few questions have come up:

I'm having trouble getting both the crankshaft bolt and the coolant pulley bolts off. I'm waiting for liquid wrench to do what it does while i write this. They are all standard threading right? I have the pin lock in place on the IP - is that enough to hold the crankshaft sprocket in place while I apply torque on those bolts? I don't want to screw anything up in there.

Also, I found that my camshaft was exactly 1/2 turn off of TDC when the mark on the flywheel is aligned in the bellhousing hole. exactly. The lobes in cylinder 1 are both pointing down instead of up. Did someone just screw this up? Should i move the camshaft a half turn or is there a good reason someone might have done that? The car has ran fine up to now (except for the problems associated with the leaky pump). I've been advised by one guy to let it lie, as it worked okay before, but i'm hesitant as it's pretty clear that the lobes should be pointing up and not down at TDC.

[StevenPH]

Disregard the photo - i forgot to remove it from the post. I noticed this break in the end of the camshaft and was curious how worried I should be about it. But i've gotten word that this is fairly common and nothing I should be overly concerned about. Unless you all disagree with that assessment...

[82vdub]

A previous owner may have used the wrong lock pin hole in the injection pump pully, so that was out 180 degrees and that could be why the cam is out 180. I'd align everything back up as it should be, and see how it runs. If you can't get it to run (well), then it's possible that the internals of the injection pump could be out 180 degrees. I suspect that someone just used the wrong lock pin in the IP.

[Quantum TD]

Couple of thoughts:

1) What do you mean by exactly 1/2 turn? 180 degrees or what?

2) From the way you describe it, I would suspect that some idiot put the flywheel on incorrectly on the pressure plate. Or, you're using the wrong reference point on the flywheel. I've seen flywheels off their correct locations more times than I care to remember. I would go by the camshaft and set it where it needs to be (where the locking plate will fit). Then check the flywheel for a mark in the nearby area. If one does not exist, then I'd make one and go by that. If the cam were out 90 or 180 degrees, the valve would be shot. So, the more-likely scenario is that some retard put the wrong flywheel on there, or put it on in the wrong position.

3)The broken keyway simply means that you'll have to counter hold the sprocket when you loosen the camshaft bolt to remove the sprocket. Check the FAQ for a link to HOMEMADE tools you can use to counter-hold the camshaft sprocket. You MUST loosen the camshaft sprocket to properly do the belt job. But if some idiot put the flywheel on wrong, then you'll probably want to fix that at some point, and properly re-time your engine.

4) Liquid wrench sucks. Get some PB blast or (even better) AeroKroil. I wouldn't touch the center bolt on the crankshaft unless the seal is leaking and needs to be replaced. As for the 4 allen bolts: I usually hammer a 6mm allen socket into each, and then use the impact wrench to get them off. On the water pump bolts, you're gonna need a torch if you want to avoid breaking the bolts off in the housing. Those bolts are very weak and prone to breaking. No amount of penetrating oil will save them if they're rusted in there. When you reinstall, be sure to use some antisieze.

5) A final option to ensure you don't screw anything up while playing with the timing belt: get some white-out or nail polish, and make marks on everything (belts and sprockets). Be sure to reference the IP sprocket to the pump too.

[StevenPH]

Success! I checked TDC on the cam again, and found another identical mark - or was it the same mark? does the flywheel rotate 2x for each cam rotation? That would explain everything.

Good i'm glad the crankshaft bolt stays put - looking at the pulley it seemed like the bolt had to be removed to take off the pulley, but I hadn't gotten the allen bolts out to confirm that theory.

Bought some PB blast and will give that a shot on the pulley bolts.

While I'm thinking about the tranny - my shifter works fine but is clanky - I can hear metal on metal when i shift, not loud enough that i hear it while driving, but at an idle it's pretty clear. Is that something I should worry about? Can I lube anything in there without opening up the transmission?

[Quantum-man]

Hi all, thanks for all the help so far on the 89 Jetta. Mind if I throw some more questions at you?

So i have a leaky lip seal (seal on IP shaft by pulley) and am removing the belts and IP pulley to get at it. A few questions have come up:

I'm having trouble getting both the crankshaft bolt and the coolant pulley bolts off. I'm waiting for liquid wrench to do what it does while i write this. They are all standard threading right? I have the pin lock in place on the IP - is that enough to hold the crankshaft sprocket in place while I apply torque on those bolts? I don't want to screw anything up in there.

Also, I found that my camshaft was exactly 1/2 turn off of TDC when the mark on the flywheel is aligned in the bellhousing hole. exactly. The lobes in cylinder 1 are both pointing down instead of up. Did someone just screw this up? Should i move the camshaft a half turn or is there a good reason someone might have done that? The car has ran fine up to now (except for the problems associated with the leaky pump). I've been advised by one guy to let it lie, as it worked okay before, but i'm hesitant as it's pretty clear that the lobes should be pointing up and not down at TDC.

Simply rotate the flywheel round one more revolution
The cam turns at half the speed of the crank. So flywheel turns round twice to one complete turn of the cam.
This gives the engine TDC for #1 and then #4, then #1, then #4.... That is how the pump can get set to inject wrongly as it also turns at half speed

EDIT OOPs you've just covered it

[Quantum TD]

While I'm thinking about the tranny - my shifter works fine but is clanky - I can hear metal on metal when i shift, not loud enough that i hear it while driving, but at an idle it's pretty clear. Is that something I should worry about? Can I lube anything in there without opening up the transmission?

You can buy the rebuild kits for pretty cheap. That will replace all the rubber bits in the linkage system. If you have a MK2 car, you'll also probably need the selector rod with the molded plastci ball on it.

[StevenPH]

Would you recommend any kind of lubrication prior to replacing parts? What I might use and where I might use it?

Thanks for the help - I got my timing belt back on with a new front seal on the IP yesterday and am all set to time the pump and start it up!

[Quantum TD]

I just use red grease. It holds up well.

[StevenPH]

So i got everything put back together, and while rotating the crankshaft a few times to double check myself, noticed that the rotation tension wasn't very consistent. Nothing binding or sticking at all, but every three our four pulls on the ratchet i felt more resistance than usual, and it would bounce backwards a half inch or so.

And something else i can't explain:

I turned the engine one rotation (one rotation on the camshaft), and checked my TDC marks. and my marks on the timing belt were 4 notches off! confused, i rechecked TDC, all three, cam, flywheel and IP all matched perfectly. I made new marks, and turned the engine one more rotation. checked again at TDC, and saw that the belt had returned four marks back, to its original position!

i this due to some complex equation of sprockets and shafts and belts or is something seriously wrong? maybe i made some tiny error somewhere that i'm unaware of.

any thoughts on an explanation?


thanks

[Quantum-man]

So i got everything put back together, and while rotating the crankshaft a few times to double check myself, noticed that the rotation tension wasn't very consistent. Nothing binding or sticking at all, but every three our four pulls on the ratchet i felt more resistance than usual, and it would bounce backwards a half inch or so.

is the rotation of the crankshaft by hand supposed to be more consistent than this or is this normal? i tensioned the timing belt by the twist method (between 45 and 90 degree with one hand twisting per threads on this forum) so perhaps I tightened too far? I'm going out now to loosen the belt and see if that makes a difference.

thanks

Every 3 or 4? Sounds like 1/8th of a crank rev per pull so every 4 is half revolution, so 4 lots of is 2 revolutions of crank. Thus you are talking about the four compression strokes of a 4 cylinder engine....
A good result IMO

[StevenPH]

Does the timing belt moves 4 notches on the IP and cam sprockets every full rotation? I realized that not thinking, I had moved the engine backwards the first time, and so then the second full belt rotation the belt moved forward four back to its original location. I just moved it another full belt rotation, and my original mark is now four notches off in the other direction!

my feeble brain can't make sense of how that would happen.

[82vdub]

Yea, if you come to a good strong resistance (that's clearly not a mechanical interferrrence issue), that means there is good compression.

On the timing marks, the belt is not a 1:1 gear to cog setup with the pullys on the engine. It is what it is.

[StevenPH]

Done and done. She runs perfect and isn't leaking a thing. Thanks again for all of your help, my VW would be only good for leaning on if it wasn't for this forum.

steve