Unthinkable..

[steevz]

So I was motoring to work this morning and going about 110km/hr, ~3000-3500rpm and lost power, no horrible noises or anything. Pushed in clutch and turned off car. Coasted to a stop right off the highway. Got my car towed home.

Timing belt broke.. I thought okay.. pulled the valve cover and my camshaft is broken between #1 intake and exhaust valves. That's wonderful, I've been trying to find out if my car is mechanical or hydro. I found a picture on the forum that says if it has the second oil passage up front, it's hydro. According to that my car is mechanical then. 85 Jetta TD.

I thought all TDs were hydro? (think I read that somewhere) Someone please clarify. If infact it is a mechanical head, then I have a mechanical head here from a vanagon that I'd imagine I can use the camshaft and valves, etc out of?

Please let me know, I need to get running asap.

[surfcam]

I have a 85TD jetta engine in my 86 Golf. I believe the change over to hydro head happened in 86. One of the ways to tell if it is mechanical or not is by carefully looking at the lifter covering the spring. The hydro ones are all one piece. The mechanical has a shim on the top. You should be able to see where it goes in all the way around the edge. There are little spots on the edge to allow the removal of the shims.

[Quantum-man]

So I was motoring to work this morning and going about 110km/hr, ~3000-3500rpm and lost power, no horrible noises or anything. Pushed in clutch and turned off car. Coasted to a stop right off the highway. Got my car towed home.

Timing belt broke.. I thought okay.. pulled the valve cover and my camshaft is broken between #1 intake and exhaust valves. That's wonderful, I've been trying to find out if my car is mechanical or hydro. I found a picture on the forum that says if it has the second oil passage up front, it's hydro. According to that my car is mechanical then. 85 Jetta TD.

I thought all TDs were hydro? (think I read that somewhere) Someone please clarify. If infact it is a mechanical head, then I have a mechanical head here from a vanagon that I'd imagine I can use the camshaft and valves, etc out of?

Please let me know, I need to get running asap.

What a disaster. No hint of sadness in your written voice though. Just eagerness to sort it out , Diesel engines were the last to go hydro. TD's came out in 81/82. Shim disks are best way to tell as you have cover off.

Head will have to come off to check damage. If gasket not old, reuse is possible, as it will locate perfectly.

[steevz]

Alright, thanks. That helps a lot. Guess they are both mech then.

I span my crank by hand and managed to do full revolutions without any contact.. that's not right... about to pull the head, all I got left is the head bolts. Will update.

Edit: Can removal of cylinder head be done with turbo still attached?

[82vdub]

Wow, terrible event. I hydro head has the two oil return passages where a mechanical head only has one. That's the easiest way to determine what is what. Hydro head motors have the two oil return holes in the block and mechanical head motors only have the one hole.

[steevz]

Alright.. well, I got the head off and don't know what the heck happened.

The valves never hit the pistons.. not once.. no marks in the top of the pistons at all.

No valves stuck sticking out either... can they bend and go back inside..? When I bent one before it was stuck out like a 1/4". It appears there is no damage.. the lifters look okay.. I haven't changed the cam yet.

I'll pull the cam and take pictures.

Is it possible that my t-belt and camshaft could have broken with no damage to the head? Now I'm confused.

[82vdub]

Because the cam broke right after one lobe (from the timing belt), this could be your savings grace. The broken part of the cam may have just rotated to a neutral position letting the valves close. Or, if there was any pressure as a piston would come up and hit a valve, there was no substantial rotating force behind it, allowing the piston to push the valve back up.

I would, at a minimum, get a different cam in there and rotate it all the way around to make sure nothing binds up. If you're going to try to go that route. Maybe a better solution in this case is get the head to a machine shop, basically in front of someone's eyes that do this work all day long. They should be able to tell you if it's ok to use or not. You may put a lot of money into redoing the head and find out something wrong with it because you do this type of wonk once every 20 years or so.

[Quantum-man]

Wow, terrible event. I hydro head has the two oil return passages where a mechanical head only has one. That's the easiest way to determine what is what. Hydro head motors have the two oil return holes in the block and mechanical head motors only have the one hole.

Or do you mean 4 and 3 respectively?

[steevz]

I pulled the cam and #1 intake valve is definately bent on the top.. the cam follower came right out but the valve spring retainer is stuck down on a bit of an angle. Should be able to remove that one without much issues.

Next, #2 exhaust cam follower is stuck in, cracking on the top.. and #4 intake cam follower is stuck in. The shims on those 4 valves also have depressions from the cam lobes.

All the valves are sitting inside the head. Any ideas on getting these cam followers out? I might be better off using my other head that only had 1 bad valve.. and just replace that.

Can I reuse a valve from a different head? The shims on my two heads are also different sizes.. one being 3.15mm and the other 3.70mm. If I go that route, do I just need a new stem seal?

Thanks.

[Quantum-man]

Will the valves tapped down push the followers out? Required shim size can only be determined when assembled. They aren't all the same size on each head are they? You may be able to turn a divoted one upside down, if actually flat.

Piston crown state?

[surfcam]

To me this is unusual and bad luck. Or could it be cause by something. If you bought it used. Who knows if the right cam was in it. I've heard it can cause problems. Maybe one of the cam bearing got put on backwards. Just a cautionary word sorry for your troubles.

[steevz]

They were all in properly. Not sure how it happened.

Piston crown is in good shape. The valve might have kissed the pistons.. but the only mark they made is on the carbon and not on the piston itself. I found a VW guy who sells parts and does work 8kms from my house. He said going by the book it gives him 6.8 hours to do valves.. but he said it's a 10 min job. I'm just going to take my head to him and have him put in the new valve, check tolerences, etc. Doing all that he said would only take about 30mins if all goes well. So he'll only charge 1/2 hour labor. Said he does it with everything he feels people get ripped off for! Great!

I'm taking him the vanagon head with one bent valve and going to see if we can get a new valve in there within tolerance.

So that's for Friday.. Will update when the time comes.

[steevz]

Got my head back.. everything is within tolerance, and got a new valve in there.

Well, my shims haven't been adjusted in god knows how long and the guy told me the most likely thing that happened is the shims jumped while driving and the camshaft binded into them, which is likely considering the dents in them.

I also got my new head gasket, timing belt, bolts, and I'll be putting everything back on tomorrow. Let you guys know how it goes.

[steevz]

Running again.. ah.. sigh of relief.

Can't seem to get the timing perfect.. need to locate a dial indicator. For checking the shims does .20 - 30. mean .20 will fit and .30 won't or nothing over .30 should fit?

I got feeler gauges but I couldn't quite figure this out.. I think they're all 'close' with 3.15's in them.. but one valve has a used valve from my other head..

help please?

[bbob203]

dial indicator?? who needs one of those... loosen the bolts until they're snug but your still able to move the pump with some force but not to much where you can't make fine movent.. fire up the motor and man handle it until you have it set to just about "marbles". make sure you motors warm and you cold start lever in pushed in. this is how I. timed mine after doing the t-belt works perfect. might take a touch of trial and error but it takes 2 mins to loosen the ip.